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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2 (04/30/22)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Nexerelin v0.10.4d "Dissonance" (fixes 2022-04-09)  (Read 2118007 times)

JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4245 on: December 03, 2021, 10:46:15 AM »

Does anyone have a good tutorial for invasions? Trying to fight some of the NPC factions that *arent* pirates and Pathers and losing horribly as I can't possibly land enough heavy troops to fight the 10k+ army strength they have before the initial troops die. I'm doing everything I can, including using abilities, but I can't seem to win and the 6k marines I brought with me are all dead.

I couldn't say tutorial, but with the addition of a supply requirement to deploy troops (which has kind of a weird growth factor, though that should be balanced eventually), player is basically forced to always raid for supplies first before deploying troops.  So raid for supplies before invading!  System in general will prolly need some more balancing, it is very new.  But yes, I invaded another faction's planet in my system but didn't bother to bring over enough supplies to hang out in orbit after deployment (which mod basically kinda requires), lost all troops in time it took to fly back to my planet and back.  Only occurred to me after that one just needs to always raid for mo' supplies before invading.  I guess if anything, invading needs some sort of scout function to nominally estimate supply invasion cost; more likely just use operatives instead (since operatives ARE a huge part of this mod), but since scouts are a military thing and player gets so few operatives:

https://youtu.be/aXQ2lO3ieBA?t=112

I mean, could literally make a scout commodity unit like crew or marines to accomplish this, but adding commodities is a surprisingly controversial sell on this forum, plus up to Histidine anyways.  So maybe just the abstract concept of scouts are necessary (even though theoretically future BS fleet sensors in orbit should basically do the trick, and/or too close to Star Wars probe droid).  However, since operatives would likely be more preferable, info player gets when deploying an operative to an invasion target would likely include an estimated total supply cost for invading, which then gets modified if player has operative soften target up (although would also modify if enemy faction AI makes certain improvements to planet or more marines appear, it would go both directions).
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Histidine

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4246 on: December 03, 2021, 05:27:59 PM »

Is it just me or does the invasion tooltip in the intel screen always say that the attacker's and defender's ground forces are "evenly matched", regardless of their actual relative strengths?
The invasion's ground strength (in terms of raw marine numbers) scales partially to the target's expected garrison size (before the fleet does its tactical bombardment on arrival thing), so the estimate should start out about even. Though it doesn't take into account the admin's Ground Operations bonus (if any), and while it considers the drop attrition effect of ground defenses/heavy batteries I don't expect it's very good at it.

Next time I'm working on the mod, I should probably look at a breakdown of the estimate calculation and see how it can be improved.

Does anyone have a good tutorial for invasions? Trying to fight some of the NPC factions that *arent* pirates and Pathers and losing horribly as I can't possibly land enough heavy troops to fight the 10k+ army strength they have before the initial troops die. I'm doing everything I can, including using abilities, but I can't seem to win and the 6k marines I brought with me are all dead.

I couldn't say tutorial, but with the addition of a supply requirement to deploy troops (which has kind of a weird growth factor, though that should be balanced eventually), player is basically forced to always raid for supplies first before deploying troops.  So raid for supplies before invading!  System in general will prolly need some more balancing, it is very new.  But yes, I invaded another faction's planet in my system but didn't bother to bring over enough supplies to hang out in orbit after deployment (which mod basically kinda requires), lost all troops in time it took to fly back to my planet and back.  Only occurred to me after that one just needs to always raid for mo' supplies before invading.
Also, when invading a large colony, neutralize the Heavy Batteries first (if they have any, but they almost always will for the really valuable targets) with operatives or a tactical bombardment. Attacking into the face of operational HB will result in a bloodbath at best.

On raiding for supplies: You can do it mid-invasion if you suddenly find you don't have enough supplies (I've done it before). Disband a currently deployed unit and use the marines it returns to cargo. There won't be many of them, but with the stability penalty and (presumably) nonfunctional ground defenses/heavy batteries due to the ongoing invasion, the enemy's ground defense rating won't be so hot either.
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SneakyDevil

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4247 on: December 03, 2021, 06:44:00 PM »

I... appreciate the replies so far, but there are unfortunately what I already do. I always bring about 10K supplies with me and always do a tac bombardment before I start combat. The issue I'm running into Is I can't seem to deploy troops fast enough to counter the non-militia ground troops already present on the world. Tartarus for example can, and has, redeployed up to 10k troop power onto a single industry, and with me being about to only deploy about 2.4k per turn most of my guys just get turned to gristle.
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this_is_a_username

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4248 on: December 04, 2021, 01:00:21 AM »

The invasion's ground strength (in terms of raw marine numbers) scales partially to the target's expected garrison size (before the fleet does its tactical bombardment on arrival thing), so the estimate should start out about even. Though it doesn't take into account the admin's Ground Operations bonus (if any), and while it considers the drop attrition effect of ground defenses/heavy batteries I don't expect it's very good at it.

Next time I'm working on the mod, I should probably look at a breakdown of the estimate calculation and see how it can be improved.

Hmm... so I played around with it a bit more.

Requesting 100 FP, 100 marine invasion on Lucifron (1804 space, 39312 ground)
Results: space forces outmatched, ground forces outmatched

Requesting 1500 FP, 16000 marine invasion on Garnir (16 space, 77 ground)
Results: space forces superior, ground forces "evenly matched", outcome is uncertain

It seems like no matter how much ground superiority you have over the target, the scaling that you mentioned makes it so that your ground forces can never be listed as superior to the target's. This means that the tooltip will never say that an invasion is likely to succeed, which can be frustrating when an enemy faction is invading your colony and you don't know if "evenly matched" really means evenly matched, or if they actually have 100x your ground forces.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 01:03:30 AM by this_is_a_username »
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Maethendias

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4249 on: December 04, 2021, 01:32:22 AM »

I... appreciate the replies so far, but there are unfortunately what I already do. I always bring about 10K supplies with me and always do a tac bombardment before I start combat. The issue I'm running into Is I can't seem to deploy troops fast enough to counter the non-militia ground troops already present on the world. Tartarus for example can, and has, redeployed up to 10k troop power onto a single industry, and with me being about to only deploy about 2.4k per turn most of my guys just get turned to gristle.

just have more raw marines and ground supports

from what i have noticed, having just a LOT of marines and a few ground supports allows you to deploy more marines during invasions too

i guess its a %tage you are allowed to use for invading?

also heavy weapons
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SneakyDevil

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4250 on: December 04, 2021, 03:08:54 AM »

ah HA, YES!
Quote
ground supports allows you to deploy more marines during invasions
This is what I was missing. Swapping out some ships for ones with GSP allowed for a massive increase in the supply pool. I wish this was mentioned somewhere in the Help tooltip for the invasions as that seems a pretty important thing to mention.

Thanks Maethendias!
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Maethendias

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4251 on: December 04, 2021, 04:16:15 AM »

ah HA, YES!
Quote
ground supports allows you to deploy more marines during invasions
This is what I was missing. Swapping out some ships for ones with GSP allowed for a massive increase in the supply pool. I wish this was mentioned somewhere in the Help tooltip for the invasions as that seems a pretty important thing to mention.

Thanks Maethendias!

again, dont quote me on that, i just noticed that when doing those steps i never have problem deploying en mass
so could be one, could be both things, could be neither and just something entirely unrelated thats happening
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Histidine

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4252 on: December 04, 2021, 04:16:13 PM »

I figured people would bring ground support ships to an invasion as a matter of course (in which case, the bonuses would have been displayed in the invasion's info tab and the movement points tooltip). Welp.

Hmm... so I played around with it a bit more.

Requesting 100 FP, 100 marine invasion on Lucifron (1804 space, 39312 ground)
Results: space forces outmatched, ground forces outmatched

Requesting 1500 FP, 16000 marine invasion on Garnir (16 space, 77 ground)
Results: space forces superior, ground forces "evenly matched", outcome is uncertain

It seems like no matter how much ground superiority you have over the target, the scaling that you mentioned makes it so that your ground forces can never be listed as superior to the target's. This means that the tooltip will never say that an invasion is likely to succeed, which can be frustrating when an enemy faction is invading your colony and you don't know if "evenly matched" really means evenly matched, or if they actually have 100x your ground forces.
Thanks for testing!
The Garnir case is so obviously wrong, I checked and there's indeed the bug I suspected: the invasion intel is overriding the number of marines specified in the fleet request with its own auto-calculated figure. And it looks like this bug has been there forever.
:-X :-X :-X

Fixed for next version, thanks! This makes the 16k marines vs. Garnir case actually work correctly.
I'll check if the estimates are still being weird in other places afterwards.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 04:18:12 PM by Histidine »
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Maethendias

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4253 on: December 04, 2021, 05:35:39 PM »

i just discovered another thing... this time about rebellions:

the persian league successfully invaded a planet of the avionics, which i retook 2 weeks later...

however, the planet somehow managed to spawn a persian league rebellion? (despite it being a core avionics market?)... which then took the planet over and promtly wiped it out?
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Obsidian Actual

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4254 on: December 04, 2021, 07:20:43 PM »

i just discovered another thing... this time about rebellions:

the persian league successfully invaded a planet of the avionics, which i retook 2 weeks later...

however, the planet somehow managed to spawn a persian league rebellion? (despite it being a core avionics market?)... which then took the planet over and promtly wiped it out?

Whenever an attacking faction takes over a market, the previous faction (defenders) will always spawn a rebellion on-planet.

If left unattended, they can (from my experience) wreck havoc on the market's structures/industries.
I've never seen it devolve into a depopulization event though (if I'm reading you correctly).

Every time you take over a market, make sure to comms the market administrator/governor NPC afterwards, and ask about how you can contribute to quashing said rebellion before it gets out of hand.
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Maethendias

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4255 on: December 04, 2021, 08:23:40 PM »

i just discovered another thing... this time about rebellions:

the persian league successfully invaded a planet of the avionics, which i retook 2 weeks later...

however, the planet somehow managed to spawn a persian league rebellion? (despite it being a core avionics market?)... which then took the planet over and promtly wiped it out?

Whenever an attacking faction takes over a market, the previous faction (defenders) will always spawn a rebellion on-planet.

If left unattended, they can (from my experience) wreck havoc on the market's structures/industries.
I've never seen it devolve into a depopulization event though (if I'm reading you correctly).

Every time you take over a market, make sure to comms the market administrator/governor NPC afterwards, and ask about how you can contribute to quashing said rebellion before it gets out of hand.

it didnt acutally do a depop event, it straight up bombed out after they won
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Oni

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4256 on: December 09, 2021, 07:45:22 PM »

Does anyone know which parameters I need to adjust to make Raids more common and invasions less so (but not stopping them entirely)?  ???
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Histidine

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4257 on: December 10, 2021, 02:28:55 AM »

i just discovered another thing... this time about rebellions:

the persian league successfully invaded a planet of the avionics, which i retook 2 weeks later...

however, the planet somehow managed to spawn a persian league rebellion? (despite it being a core avionics market?)... which then took the planet over and promtly wiped it out?
Conquest always spawns a rebellion of the immediately prior owner if possible, unless the conquering faction is the 'original owner' (or the previous owner was the Derelict Empire).
(I'll expand this to allies of the original owner)

Does anyone know which parameters I need to adjust to make Raids more common and invasions less so (but not stopping them entirely)?  ???
Can't be done at present, raids always alternate with invasion/satbomb events.

I've had a proposal on the back burner for some time, where factions have a defined chance of raid/invasion/sat bomb that gets rolled every time the offensive action event comes up. Probably not going to happen any time soon though.
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Oni

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Re: [0.95a] Nexerelin v0.10.3g "SpaceLand Battle" (fixes 2021-11-26)
« Reply #4258 on: December 10, 2021, 02:08:05 PM »

...
Does anyone know which parameters I need to adjust to make Raids more common and invasions less so (but not stopping them entirely)?  ???
Can't be done at present, raids always alternate with invasion/satbomb events.

I've had a proposal on the back burner for some time, where factions have a defined chance of raid/invasion/sat bomb that gets rolled every time the offensive action event comes up. Probably not going to happen any time soon though.
Unfortunate, guess I'll have to stick with just lengthening the delay before everything descends into chaos (lots of faction mods. lots).

Do you foresee the 0.95.1a update (which I believe may have dropped today) giving you many compatibility problems?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 02:21:06 PM by Oni »
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