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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3  (Read 21638 times)

dgchessman2

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.2
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2022, 01:25:19 PM »

I wish there was a way to see what ships had nozzles other than buying them

There's a LOT of things I wish I could see about ships before buying them...
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Ruddygreat

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.2
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2022, 03:05:45 PM »

I wish there was a way to see what ships had nozzles other than buying them
nozzles are part of the sprites!
a few aren't clear (the komodo & lacerta mainly) and some don't have them (carriers, civ ships & phase ships), but they're pretty easy to spot once you figure it out
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theDragn

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2022, 03:14:16 PM »

New version. Fixed some bugs with Nexerelin (missing hulls BP package and an issue in random sector mode), fixed Backscatter's hangar launch locations, and reduced Photon (F)'s fuel capacity slightly. As always, you can grab it from the initial post.

EdisonTrent

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2022, 11:13:51 AM »

Thanks for the update. Also, the missile ship is evil and I love it. I've almost always played Long Range Lasers, but this convinced me otherwise.
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Killsode

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2022, 06:27:30 AM »

think i've found a new mod to add to my load order! and i dont think i've ever seen a faction mod that has compatibility for mid-save addition either!
the combat to logistics through a hullmod is a first as well i think, you've made something quite remarkable!

PS. Commissioned crew support?
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Dragar

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2022, 07:59:22 AM »

This faction plays exactly how I wish low tech played in vanila ie with the ability to  fall back and patch armor.
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theDragn

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2022, 12:42:14 AM »

think i've found a new mod to add to my load order! and i dont think i've ever seen a faction mod that has compatibility for mid-save addition either!
the combat to logistics through a hullmod is a first as well i think, you've made something quite remarkable!

PS. Commissioned crew support?

The mid-save addition for a faction mod with its own systems is new, I think. Realized it was possible and thought "well it can't be that hard, I'll give it a go" and it was only a little hard. Combat to logistics conversion is new as well, but it builds on some stuff done by Interstellar Imperium. The fancy part of that is that the carrier hulls count as combat ships, but will properly count as civilian ships if they have the conversion on.

Also, it's had CC support since beta. Their commission hullmod gives +10% armor effectiveness and repairs 15% of armor and hull damage when combat ends.

Jotun

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2022, 02:18:22 AM »

Alright, creating my first account here after lurking for a while just to give a bit of feedback about this mod.

So first of all, great mod, I love the idea of the faction, the art is great and quite unique and I love all the hull mods that synergize really nicely. I think Apex Design Collective will be one of these main stays in my future runs. 8)

With that said, I have some concerns regarding balance. In my humble opinion some ships are a bit too good. The worst offender being the Eidolon. Many time this battleship has been kiting around my VIC destroyers (yes I know, not vanilla but that's what I am playing with this run and they are fast ships, so in this regard they are a relevant example). We're talking here about a battleship hull, kiting fast light destroyers from a speedy faction. That's a tad broken isn't it? A fast battleship kiting another battleship? Fine. Kiting cruisers? Maybe. Kiting a bunch of fast destroyers? Even the Radiant can't quite do that (or at least not for very long). So I suggest to nerf the cooldown on the active of the Eidolon a fair bit.

I have some issues with the Komodo too. Alone in a vacuum it is fine. But put a bunch of them together and oh boy do you have a problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3odxJPVQzHo

They managed to keep almost 150 DP (with skill reduction) of my fleet busy for nearly 2 minutes with the support of two of their light destroyers (it would have been much longer without player intervention). Let's be honest, they had the fire power of two endgame s-modded battleships facing them (plus an excellent destroyer piloted by a player of very questionable talent ::)) and should have crumbled easily. I don't really know any other configuration with cruisers that would have done THAT well. In fact, I bet even 3 Brilliants with Alpha cores wouldn't have lasted that long (mostly because they are much squishier). I am unsure what gives but so many good weapon mounts (including a large one), plus fighter bay, plus decent flux stats, plus damper field? That's too good, something gotta give (and yes I understand that they aren't quite mobile but they seem decently maneuverable and their omnishield make it sort of moot anyways). They didn't have ships to regen their armor though but I can't imagine the nightmare with these around. Maybe make their shield worse, maybe just give them a front shield instead of omni, or a slower one... Or maybe the cooldown of their active has to go down too or increase the flux cost of their damper field (they tend to get quite spammy with it). Most of the vanilla vessels with damper field have massive drawbacks (usually they don't pack a lot of heat and are just there to tank, the Komodo does both a bit too well IMHO). Maybe remove the fighter bay (thus forcing them to use some of the mounts for PD instead of pure DPS against vessels).

That's it! I love this mod so, I had to chip in and as I said, it is really well made (I've been quite impressed by the missile launching animation of the Crocodile).
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Killsode

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2022, 04:55:48 AM »

The mid-save addition for a faction mod with its own systems is new, I think. Realized it was possible and thought "well it can't be that hard, I'll give it a go" and it was only a little hard. Combat to logistics conversion is new as well, but it builds on some stuff done by Interstellar Imperium. The fancy part of that is that the carrier hulls count as combat ships, but will properly count as civilian ships if they have the conversion on.

I've picked up quite a few ADC ships now and i'm absolutely loving them, the design, the mechanical depth of, well, just about everything. Although i must say from the bit i've used them, they seem overpowered. they've always got plenty of OP to go around and many of the ships are honestly far faster than i expected from the faction description.
and i havent even gotten my hands on the repair tech yet!

but despite the balance, i'm absolutely loving the ship designs and the mechanical depth of the weapons and hullmods.

Also, it's had CC support since beta. Their commission hullmod gives +10% armor effectiveness and repairs 15% of armor and hull damage when combat ends.
Just got their commission, and thats a nice juicy bonus.
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Killsode

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2022, 06:35:36 AM »

Alright after looking at the ships a little more i think i've got some balance suggestions, assuming you want something close to vanilla.

Just for example here's two ships which i think stand out quite a bit, the crocodile and the mamba

The Crocodile has 10 OP (150 - 140), 400 armor (1,200 - 800), and 3,000 hull (10,000 - 7,000) more than the gryphon , which has to actually mount a large missile to boot, all for 6 more DP (26 - 20), 10 less speed (50 - 60) and a costlier CR per deployment.
Putting the extreme effectiveness of the missile swarm aside, the ship itself could probably take a 20 or 30 OP nerf and possibly 4 more DP as well and still come out amazing.

As for the mamba, honestly i just think the DP is just criminally low, 6 DP for a phase-frigate with the ability to both dodge and delete entire volleys of enemy fire is absurd, it could be 12 or even 15 OP and still come out as an amazing escort alone with that shipsystem. (i *&^#ing love this guy)

overall i think almost all of the ships could eat OP and DP nerfs and still come out extremely effective.
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Jotun

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2022, 06:42:53 AM »

As for the mamba, honestly i just think the DP is just criminally low, 6 DP for a phase-frigate with the ability to both dodge and delete entire volleys of enemy fire is absurd, it could be 12 or even 15 OP and still come out as an amazing escort alone with that shipsystem. (i *&^#ing love this guy)

+1 to this.

Although I'd probably say something like 10 DP would be a good start. I see no good reason why it should be cheaper than an Afflictor (I'd argue the Mamba has better raw combat performances but the Afflictor system is better when paired with a big nasty battleship, so they should at least have a similar deployment cost).

The crocodile felt a bit off somehow but I can't offer constructive feedback on that one so far because I did not experiment against it enough yet (both in sim and in fleet battles proper).
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 06:49:17 AM by Jotun »
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theDragn

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2022, 02:42:49 PM »

I do indeed have a habit of making new things too strong and then having to tune them down.

[feedback and video]
Worth noting that you were facing ~120 DP worth of ships with officers and you still won without losses, which seems reasonable to me. The reason one of them was so mobile was because it had safety overrides.

Eidolon: It's a fast capital, and definitely not the only one out there (Odyssey, DME's Zelenograd, II's Dominus, etc). It's fantastic at bullying things that are smaller than it, but loses against "real" capitals- an Onslaught beats an Eidolon quite handily.

Temporal Damper: You're correct that ships with damper field are normally just tanks, or otherwise have some tradeoff for having damper. In this case the tradeoff is that they're just overpriced for what they are- without damper, the Komodo could be ~25 DP (Dominator equivalent) and the Caiman could be ~8 DP (worse Sunder). The Apex could definitely still be 60 DP without damper, but the Paragon is a thing and only costs 60, so the Apex is staying right where it is. Regardless, temporal damper is a little bit too strong right now, so I'm gonna reduce the system uptime a bit.

[crocodile too good, mamba too good, generally too strong]
Mamba: Yeah I totally forgot the actual DP values for vanilla phase frigates, lol. It'll get increased to 8 DP and I'll probably remove the charges from the system. Aside from that, though- the Shade exists, does about the same thing, and is about as powerful (if not more so- it's got an extra mount and its system works against enemy ships too).

Crocodile: This one's been on the watchlist for a bit of a nerf. Will probably reduce hull HP and OP a bit. Though, it's still only good in a fleet context- it struggles to kill any other similarly-priced cruiser in a one-on-one. And yeah, it's not a particularly fun ship to captain. A bit like an Eagle, there- there's not much going on with it, so it's a bit boring to fly. But not everything needs to be playerbait, and it's perfectly fine in AI hands.

Killsode

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2022, 04:36:39 PM »

I do indeed have a habit of making new things too strong and then having to tune them down.

ah its just more fun that way

[feedback and video]
Worth noting that you were facing ~120 DP worth of ships with officers and you still won without losses, which seems reasonable to me. The reason one of them was so mobile was because it had safety overrides.

Eidolon: It's a fast capital, and definitely not the only one out there (Odyssey, DME's Zelenograd, II's Dominus, etc). It's fantastic at bullying things that are smaller than it, but loses against "real" capitals- an Onslaught beats an Eidolon quite handily.

Temporal Damper: You're correct that ships with damper field are normally just tanks, or otherwise have some tradeoff for having damper. In this case the tradeoff is that they're just overpriced for what they are- without damper, the Komodo could be ~25 DP (Dominator equivalent) and the Caiman could be ~8 DP (worse Sunder). The Apex could definitely still be 60 DP without damper, but the Paragon is a thing and only costs 60, so the Apex is staying right where it is. Regardless, temporal damper is a little bit too strong right now, so I'm gonna reduce the system uptime a bit.

consider making 10 and keeping the charges, its honestly an exceptional escort phase frigate, something i didnt even know could work for phase ships

[crocodile too good, mamba too good, generally too strong]
Mamba: Yeah I totally forgot the actual DP values for vanilla phase frigates, lol. It'll get increased to 8 DP and I'll probably remove the charges from the system. Aside from that, though- the Shade exists, does about the same thing, and is about as powerful (if not more so- it's got an extra mount and its system works against enemy ships too).

Crocodile: This one's been on the watchlist for a bit of a nerf. Will probably reduce hull HP and OP a bit. Though, it's still only good in a fleet context- it struggles to kill any other similarly-priced cruiser in a one-on-one. And yeah, it's not a particularly fun ship to captain. A bit like an Eagle, there- there's not much going on with it, so it's a bit boring to fly. But not everything needs to be playerbait, and it's perfectly fine in AI hands.

to me it seems like the croc's real problem is that it too many mounts, and a such, the OP capacity to fill them. i think it has two more small energy mounts than it actually needs, and yet another two mounts i personally just wouldnt fill. The komod actually has the same problem, it has 2 extra small energy mounts covering its rear for some reason, actually giving it more PD coverage backwards than forwards.
i'm not sure what you mean by it being unable to 1v1 something of equivalent DP, i've never had trouble with mine using 2 hvel, 2maulers, 4 quark-gluon pd, tachyon warheads, ITU, ECCM, Expanded missile racks, 20 vents and 14 capacitors. without an officer and on autopilot it can 1v1 an aurora or dominator.
hell, with the help of a good missile officer ontop of the previous loadout i got a simulation paragon to 95% hardflux and forced its shields down before its taclances hit my hull.

sidenote, i dont think the AI uses the crocodiles shipsystem at all.
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Jotun

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #43 on: Today at 01:45:27 AM »

I do indeed have a habit of making new things too strong and then having to tune them down.

That's totally understandable when in love with an idea, no problem!  :D

Worth noting that you were facing ~120 DP worth of ships with officers and you still won without losses, which seems reasonable to me. The reason one of them was so mobile was because it had safety overrides.

Didn't quite notice for SO, so maybe that's how this particular cookie crumbles (but then again, SO itself may have to be rebalanced because it is stupid good ATM, eh... another can of worms).
The 120 vs 120 isn't the whole picture though, all my ships had 3 s-mods, all commanded by level 6 aggressive officers with two elite skills etc. I am really not sure it would have gone the same way without officers on these ships and without s-mods, in fact, it may have been extremely difficult. Hard to tell if situation would have been similar facing a midline line-up instead but my guess is that it would not have been THAT difficult (and maybe I'm wrong but I see ADC as being an exotic midline faction, they seem closer to vanilla midline than high or low tech to me). With that said, if you rebalance Temporal Damper it may just be fine.

Eidolon: It's a fast capital, and definitely not the only one out there (Odyssey, DME's Zelenograd, II's Dominus, etc). It's fantastic at bullying things that are smaller than it, but loses against "real" capitals- an Onslaught beats an Eidolon quite handily.

You're correct. I don't use Onslaught, just did some tests and it works quite well against the Eidolon. I'd bet Conquest would as well. I never had a problem with a Zelenograd kiting my destroyers all around the battlefield for minutes on end though (I haven't compared the stats side by side but I was under the impression that just coughing on a Zeleno is enough to break it in two, it is much less the case with the Eidolon, the latter scares me, the former not really). But it may just be circumstantial (and maybe when Eidolon is kiting like crazy there are mods/officer skills at play, just like the Komodo example).

Temporal Damper: You're correct that ships with damper field are normally just tanks, or otherwise have some tradeoff for having damper. In this case the tradeoff is that they're just overpriced for what they are- without damper, the Komodo could be ~25 DP (Dominator equivalent) and the Caiman could be ~8 DP (worse Sunder). The Apex could definitely still be 60 DP without damper, but the Paragon is a thing and only costs 60, so the Apex is staying right where it is. Regardless, temporal damper is a little bit too strong right now, so I'm gonna reduce the system uptime a bit.

Sounds good! The Apex is in a good place I think, even if Temporal Damper is brought down a notch. I always use this ship in sim as a "golden standard" to test all my Battleship builds and it is definitely stronger than the Paragon builds available there. I have never had a build beating an Apex in sim but not a Paragon and definitely had a few beating the Paragon but not the Apex. But then again, Apex is more expensive (one may argue it should be 70 instead of 65 but with a slight Temporal Damper nerf it will be fine... 5 DP is also around the cost of most fast frigates which, in some cases, is not an easy choice "do I want Paragon + fast frigate or do I want Giga chad paragon with Temporal Damper but no fast frigate"... that sounds balanced to me).

Crocodile: This one's been on the watchlist for a bit of a nerf. Will probably reduce hull HP and OP a bit. Though, it's still only good in a fleet context- it struggles to kill any other similarly-priced cruiser in a one-on-one. And yeah, it's not a particularly fun ship to captain. A bit like an Eagle, there- there's not much going on with it, so it's a bit boring to fly. But not everything needs to be playerbait, and it's perfectly fine in AI hands.

I've been flying Eagles a fair bit, that's my go to ship in vanilla and trust me, 2-3 HMG + 4-6 AM blasters SO Eagle build is very fun, it is like flying a brick to bash the enemy fleet with: not subtle at all, very stupid but very efficient. ;D
But I agree regarding the croc, alone it is laughable, in a fleet it is a massive PITA that saturates PDs and fighters/bombers. I think all factions should have such a ship ideally (independently "trash" but a godsend within a fleet) .
« Last Edit: Today at 01:52:25 AM by Jotun »
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tomatopaste

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Re: [0.95.1a] Apex Design Collective v1.0.3
« Reply #44 on: Today at 02:02:25 AM »

data.ApexPolygonRenderer is also missing credit to me, thanks :)
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