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[Liral]

Then I recommend scale citadel penetrating with fire-delay, or you might call it "Charging time". Say my armor is 2500: IF - the charging time of a laser that hit's me is longer than 2.5s (just an example), AND IF - it deals enough damage just as RC calculated, THEN - "Penetrate" ELSE - "No Penetrate", even if damage looks like it's enough, it just wiped out armor! As this is basically true when considering beam weapons that's "burst" while it's whole point is to concentrate and intensify charges to penetrate. Longer charging time MEANS that it should penetrate well. Throwing tons of energy without concentration only heats armor up.

For long lasting beam damage it could also be true if programming allows, IF - damage+ AND IF - time+, THEN - Penetrate.

I would change the damage model to represent lasers burning through armor, but Starsector lasers don't remain on focused on a tiny spot for a long time; therefore, the damage model represents what a laser could burn through quickly.

For balancing reasons I also recommend using fire-delay for lasers from missiles. It'll be awkward if Dragonfire doesn't penetrate anything XD.

Any laser so powerful as to even barely penetrate the citadel armor of a ship in a moment would just as quickly obliterate the ship even if it couldn't quite penetrate the citadel.  Perhaps I should change the beam damage model, which is almost the same as the projectile one.

Yh pretty much the 1500 single hit stops it from penetrating hardest armor, or at least it takes me dozens of waves to take down Onslaught. Not a problem with Cobra. I say it could be problematic cuz Perdition is the top damage dealer within "Low Tech". If I just wanna play "Low Tech" then I also sort of have weak carriers. Like I said it's fine if you meant it and don't want to change anything here, it's only a recommendation that you could also put whether a CR or BOMB-damage multiplier into commander skill (for "using correct ammunitions").

Are they weak carriers if they can citadel everything up to an Onslaught?  Anyway, I think I'll leave it as-is.

Thought twice, maybe more realistic that lasers form missile always penetrate if damage is high enough. Cuz by any means if I somehow managed to shorten missile fire-delay. The effectiveness of warhead SHOULD remain same.

The more I think about it, the more I think I should redesign the beam damage model...

Is there a toggle for this? I can't seem to find it. I think it'd be useful for some mods to be able to keep the critical damage for burst beams. In my current weapon rework for example, while lasers are only PD weapons and ineffective against any armor, there are some particle burst beams intended to punch through citadels.

No, beams no longer doing critical malfunctions is now hardcoded.  I don't know what I could do to fix this problem.  Maybe I should just send what I have and see what you think.

Why is initial intensity only a problem for PD lasers? Is it because they're balanced around short range in vanilla?

Exactly!  Point defense lasers are balanced around short range in vanilla and therefore intensity-capped in Realistic Combat.

Why would lasers be weaker against hull? And what do you mean independent of diffraction?

Lasers and other beam weapons work by focusing a stream of light or particles on a spot for a while, but Starsector beams swing so wildly beams can focus only briefly.  Also, Realistic Combat Armor Rating refers to the total millimeters of composite armor surrounding a ship, with 1/15th for the surface and the rest for the citadel.  Therefore, an Onslaught of 1,800 Armor Rating would have 1.8m of composite armor, quickly burning through which would require such a powerful laser as to destroy the Onslaught were the laser even just a little too weak to do it; hence I consider separating the beam damage model from the projectile one.

[Helldiver]

Lasers and other beam weapons work by focusing a stream of light or particles on a spot for a while, but Starsector beams swing so wildly beams can focus only briefly

Even if the laser remains steady, the target ship would have to remain perfectly static relative to the laser weapon for it to be able to focus a spot to burn through thickness and layers of armor, which isn't a realistic option - unless you're a salvage ship hovering a wreck to cut apart lol. If the laser opens in bursts, each burst would only burn one layer in one specific spot each time.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned I was working on a total rework of weapons (including sprites, lore etc) using Realistic Combat as a base that I might post here. It's still WIP, but my current paradigms for beams are:
Lasers are fairly old weapons, and mostly effective at missile defense. Even heavier fighters shrug them off. If an older warship design has energy emplacements, it is typically only small turret mounts originally intended to carry lasers as PD.
Non-light particle beam weapons are more advanced, developed alongside more modern ships and power systems able to make them into practical combat weapons. Mainly intended to provide energy-focused ships with either long-range capability against armor (near instant kinetic beams, with heavy drawbacks) or long-range suppression capability using secondary effects. Some modern anti-fighter weapons are in this category as well.

[Liral]

Even if the laser remains steady, the target ship would have to remain perfectly static relative to the laser weapon for it to be able to focus a spot to burn through thickness and layers of armor, which isn't a realistic option - unless you're a salvage ship hovering a wreck to cut apart lol. If the laser opens in bursts, each burst would only burn one layer in one specific spot each time.

I could have made the beam weapon damage model more realistic by considering this detail, but I had ignored it because beam-heavy default loadouts might become so weak that Realistic Combat might in name only 'just work' with modded or even vanilla content.  I have already rewritten the beam damage model to work without penetrating citadel armor, and I want to know if you have an idea for beams to work without penetrating the surface armor, which is 1/15^th of total armor thickness, which is the Armor Rating in millimeters.

For example, a Wolf has 150 Armor Rating, 150mm total armor, and 10mm surface armor, while a Prometheus Mk.II has 1,500 Armor Rating, 1,500mm total armor, and 100mm surface armor.  I have left the surface armor penetration code in the damage model because a powerful beam being able to quickly penetrate (or spall) these small thicknesses of armor, especially the even thinner portions (or holes) over such exposed ship portions as sensors, mounts, or engines.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned I was working on a total rework of weapons (including sprites, lore etc) using Realistic Combat as a base that I might post here. It's still WIP, but my current paradigms for beams are:
Lasers are fairly old weapons, and mostly effective at missile defense. Even heavier fighters shrug them off. If an older warship design has energy emplacements, it is typically only small turret mounts originally intended to carry lasers as PD.
Non-light particle beam weapons are more advanced, developed alongside more modern ships and power systems able to make them into practical combat weapons. Mainly intended to provide energy-focused ships with either long-range capability against armor (near instant kinetic beams, with heavy drawbacks) or long-range suppression capability using secondary effects. Some modern anti-fighter weapons are in this category as well.

I welcome your overhaul, want to know more, and would rather integrate good suggestions than leave them standing alone, but please remember my warning when considering Realistic Combat as a "base" for another mod: I am still developing Realistic Combat and can change it as drastically as I have modified beam weapon damage.  That said, in the next version, adding the tag 'doNotModify' to a weapon_data.csv row will make the weapon modification code skip it, letting you specify your ships and weapons as you'd like without worrying about my spec modification code at least.

[Helldiver]

but please remember my warning when considering Realistic Combat as a "base" for another mod: I am still developing Realistic Combat and can change it as drastically as I have modified beam weapon damage.

That's fine - many of the changes you've made over time have allowed me to also rethink parts of my mod. I had progressively lost my enthusiasm towards Starsector in the past 2-3 years, and your mod and the fantastic framework that it provides rekindled my love for the game and pushed me to turn the my small personal side-mod into a wide-scope realism rework of the game, which I am working on to become the basis for all of my future playthroughs.
Really, thank you for all the work you've done so far.

[Liral]

That's fine - many of the changes you've made over time have allowed me to also rethink parts of my mod. I had progressively lost my enthusiasm towards Starsector in the past 2-3 years, and your mod and the fantastic framework that it provides rekindled my love for the game and pushed me to turn the my small personal side-mod into a wide-scope realism rework of the game, which I am working on to become the basis for all of my future playthroughs.
Really, thank you for all the work you've done so far.

I'm glad you've kept up with my changes and moreso that you've regained your enthusiasm and started modding yourself!  Please keep me informed, especially if it's so compatible with Realistic Combat as to become a recommended or included mod.

[Liral]

Patch 1.36.0 is out!  Beams no longer penetrate citadel armor.  Only point defense beam initial intensity is limited.  Beams do full damage on penetrating surface armor, limited otherwise as usual, regardless of distance.  Add "doNotModify" to the Tags column of the weapon_data.csv row of a weapon that you do not want Realistic Combat to modify.

[bivon]

Patch 1.36.0 is out!  Beams no longer penetrate citadel armor.  Only point defense beam initial intensity is limited.  Beams do full damage on penetrating surface armor, limited otherwise as usual, regardless of distance.  Add "doNotModify" to the Tags column of the weapon_data.csv row of a weapon that you do not want Realistic Combat to modify.

Good afternoon, could you tell me how to solve the problem of "infinite" laser swords from the Arma Armatura mod? They operate across all space, burning fleets in seconds. Is there any way to specifically limit their attack radius?


Haha. i did it. Just add tag. So easy!

[Liral]

Good afternoon, could you tell me how to solve the problem of "infinite" laser swords from the Arma Armatura mod? They operate across all space, burning fleets in seconds. Is there any way to specifically limit their attack radius?


Haha. i did it. Just add tag. So easy!

Yep!  And the mod author can do it, too.  If you see weapons that end up ridiculous, then please let me know to adjust my code to fix them; if I can't fix them, then please let the mod author know to add the tag.

[RelicLord]

Hello!  First things first, thank you for all the work you've put into this mod.  It's completely revitalized the Starsector experience for me, and I love the balance it strikes between the space opera combat of vanilla and hard sci-fi combat like The Expanse.  I've been quietly enjoying it for ages, so I should finally make the thank you post I've put off.

I recently started a new run with the latest RC, and am glad to see that beams and frag weapons have been dialed in.  I'm particularly enjoying that ships are a bit more survivable at the low end of their structure values, as it feels like light weapons can grind down the CR while heavier weapons break the ship itself.  That said, I'm finding that EMP weapons from salamander missiles to ion beams/cannons are shorting out large ships in seconds.  In the past I've tweaked the values provided in DamageModel.json to adjust basic balance, but it looks like EMP effects aren't as easy to find.  I'm a total novice when it comes to how Starsector mods are structured, and am struggling to even find the right documentation to consult.  Is there an easy way to modify the EMP strength like there is for the other damage types?

[Liral]

Hello!  First things first, thank you for all the work you've put into this mod.  It's completely revitalized the Starsector experience for me, and I love the balance it strikes between the space opera combat of vanilla and hard sci-fi combat like The Expanse.  I've been quietly enjoying it for ages, so I should finally make the thank you post I've put off.

Awwwwww, thanks for the praise!  I am glad that you enjoy the mod and that it has revitalized your enjoyment of Starsector.  I hope you'll keep playing with it.

I recently started a new run with the latest RC, and am glad to see that beams and frag weapons have been dialed in.  I'm particularly enjoying that ships are a bit more survivable at the low end of their structure values, as it feels like light weapons can grind down the CR while heavier weapons break the ship itself.

I'm happy that the weapons are working as intended.

That said, I'm finding that EMP weapons from salamander missiles to ion beams/cannons are shorting out large ships in seconds.  In the past I've tweaked the values provided in DamageModel.json to adjust basic balance, but it looks like EMP effects aren't as easy to find.  I'm a total novice when it comes to how Starsector mods are structured, and am struggling to even find the right documentation to consult.  Is there an easy way to modify the EMP strength like there is for the other damage types?

I didn't intend this behavior, want to know what it is exactly, to replicate it, and then to fix it, and for all these tasks I will need your help.  First, Realistic Combat never modifies the EMP damage of a projectile weapon or missile; therefore, I'm surprised to hear that a Salamander or Ion Cannon shorts out a large ship quickly.  Would you please tell me how to replicate this effect?  Second, Realistic Combat does modify the EMP damage of beam weapons, but I have never heard this complaint about them.  Again, would you please give me an example to replicate?  Third, Realistic Combat lacks any direct way for the user to modify EMP damage.

[RelicLord]

I first noticed it in play, where it affected modded and vanilla EMP weapons equally.  Specifically, I was trying to retreat from a pirate interception and a single vanilla ion beam at ~8000 range made it physically impossible to escape.  It was able to reliably flame out my cruiser's engines at that distance, and do it within the couple second window where the retreat forced my shields off.  But that was modded, so neither here nor there.

Would you please tell me how to replicate this effect?  Second, Realistic Combat does modify the EMP damage of beam weapons, but I have never heard this complaint about them.

I was two or three versions of RC behind, and only just updated a few days ago to start a new save.  It is possible that I'm noticing several rounds of changes rather than just the most recent update. 

To reproduce it with all other mods disabled, I launched with the Bounty Hunter origin.  In the starter wolf with a purchased Ion Beam on the front, I can flame out a simulated Onslaught's engines by beaming its nose.  In the time it takes that Onslaught to operate its burn drive, I will have shorted out two thirds of its weaponry.  EMP arcs will also pierce shields starting at ~40% hard flux, and while more muted can still flame out most ships within ~15 seconds.  This is all in the simulator, but if anything the effect is more pronounced in proper combat.

In early game anti-pirate fights, two wolf frigates with an ion cannon each are enough to keep a Falcon(P) operating at about 10% capability indefinitely.  This was with supporting fire to pressure shields, but probably still not the intended efficiency for two small-mount weapons.  I don't have any good RC-only saves to go back to, so I wasn't able to test out higher-end vanilla content as easily.

Third, Realistic Combat lacks any direct way for the user to modify EMP damage.

I guess I was hoping there was some magic wand variable in a json so I could suggest a modified value instead of just giving vague impressions.  I can try to get farther in the save to see if Mjolnirs and such have the same increased EMP effect, but unfortunately I don't have the knowledge base to offer much other than time.

[Liral]

I first noticed it in play, where it affected modded and vanilla EMP weapons equally.  Specifically, I was trying to retreat from a pirate interception and a single vanilla ion beam at ~8000 range made it physically impossible to escape.  It was able to reliably flame out my cruiser's engines at that distance, and do it within the couple second window where the retreat forced my shields off.  But that was modded, so neither here nor there.
 
I was two or three versions of RC behind, and only just updated a few days ago to start a new save.  It is possible that I'm noticing several rounds of changes rather than just the most recent update. 

To reproduce it with all other mods disabled, I launched with the Bounty Hunter origin.  In the starter wolf with a purchased Ion Beam on the front, I can flame out a simulated Onslaught's engines by beaming its nose.  In the time it takes that Onslaught to operate its burn drive, I will have shorted out two thirds of its weaponry.  EMP arcs will also pierce shields starting at ~40% hard flux, and while more muted can still flame out most ships within ~15 seconds.  This is all in the simulator, but if anything the effect is more pronounced in proper combat.

I have found the problem with the ion beams: my weapon spec modification code treats the damage and EMP of a beam weapon spec as decreasing with diffraction and therefore increases their intensity at the emitter tremendously to compensate; whereas my beam EMP calculation code then treats the EMP at the emitter as the EMP at the target, causing massive EMP.  To fix this problem, I have removed the EMP intensification from my weapon modification code.

In early game anti-pirate fights, two wolf frigates with an ion cannon each are enough to keep a Falcon(P) operating at about 10% capability indefinitely.  This was with supporting fire to pressure shields, but probably still not the intended efficiency for two small-mount weapons.  I don't have any good RC-only saves to go back to, so I wasn't able to test out higher-end vanilla content as easily.

I haven't figured out why projectile EMP damage is higher.

I guess I was hoping there was some magic wand variable in a json so I could suggest a modified value instead of just giving vague impressions.  I can try to get farther in the save to see if Mjolnirs and such have the same increased EMP effect, but unfortunately I don't have the knowledge base to offer much other than time.

Thanks for your help.  I will release a new version of Realistic Combat with this change.

[kjolnir]

I must be doing something wrong, because all this mod has done to my game is make all weapons except missiles utterly worthless and combat impossible to win.  Probably related to all the other mods I'm running but smaller ships just stay out of range and this mod makes it impossible to fire at them because of the way it reduces weapon range relative to target maneuverability.  So I just get chipped away to death and there's nothing I can do about it.  Beam weapons don't work against them either, because as far as I can tell they don't do any damage to shields, armor, or hull at all.

In the rare instance where I fight a ship where I can get in range, nearly every weapon I've equipped fails to actually destroy the ship I'm shooting at.  I'll completely destroy all the armor on the side of the ship facing me and should be hitting hull or ship interior and...nothing happens.  The target ship's hull stops deteriorating at a certain point and no matter how much I hit the ship, no new damage is done.

None of this makes any sense at all.

[synchrotron]

I don't have issues quite that extreme, but it still seems to me that ballistic weapons are rather weak against targets with lots of armor, and beam weapons, while strong against shields, are very weak against hull. A tachyon lance does less than 100 in damage.

Is it possible to add a toggle to allow armor to be stripped away?

[kjolnir]

I don't have issues quite that extreme, but it still seems to me that ballistic weapons are rather weak against targets with lots of armor, and beam weapons, while strong against shields, are very weak against hull. A tachyon lance does less than 100 in damage.

Is it possible to add a toggle to allow armor to be stripped away?

Yeah, for fact-finding purposes, I created a new game, used console commands to give myself a Paragon and four Tachyon Lances.  Loaded up one of those crappy pirate freight combat conversion ships, and was barely doing anything to it despite being in range and hitting with all four lances.

This mod makes no sense to me at all.