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Author Topic: [0.97a-RC6/0.96a-RC10]Gensoukyou Manufacture 0.8.1.rc1_t10 (English Translation)  (Read 59473 times)

DownTheDrain

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What I'm saying is it's no Excelsior (from the Ship/Weapon Pack 1.15.1 mod).

Is that the super broken bounty frigate that can take on a fleet by itself?
Because if yes then that's not much of a qualifier, no faction ship should be anywhere close to that.
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Zoppy

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What I'm saying is it's no Excelsior (from the Ship/Weapon Pack 1.15.1 mod).

Is that the super broken bounty frigate that can take on a fleet by itself?
Because if yes then that's not much of a qualifier, no faction ship should be anywhere close to that.

I made a tongue in cheek comment. I made several counterstatements as to why it's not OP. Those are the qualifiers, not the silly comment you clipped by itself. I agree it's strong. An officered/player piloted Pirate Falcon set up right with either charge launchers or a sabot+harpoon combo is offensively stronger and it costs slightly less. Although the P Falcon is not as much of a pest with its agility. Should you be running wolfpack strategies, then the Miko might indeed be OP. I haven't experienced any other time except my first few fights with the Gensoukyou Manufacture. Where it presents a credible threat. It get's completely owned by capitals with long range weaponry, mass fighters, and or mass fast missile (not torpedo) attacks. Try and pilot it yourself. It is not as strong as people make it out to be. Strong yes, not OP.

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DownTheDrain

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What I'm saying is it's no Excelsior (from the Ship/Weapon Pack 1.15.1 mod).

Is that the super broken bounty frigate that can take on a fleet by itself?
Because if yes then that's not much of a qualifier, no faction ship should be anywhere close to that.

I made a tongue in cheek comment. I made several counterstatements as to why it's not OP. Those are the qualifiers, not the silly comment you clipped by itself. I agree it's strong. An officered/player piloted Pirate Falcon set up right with either charge launchers or a sabot+harpoon combo is offensively stronger and it costs slightly less. Although the P Falcon is not as much of a pest with its agility. Should you be running wolfpack strategies, then the Miko might indeed be OP. I haven't experienced any other time except my first few fights with the Gensoukyou Manufacture. Where it presents a credible threat. It get's completely owned by capitals with long range weaponry, mass fighters, and or mass fast missile (not torpedo) attacks. Try and pilot it yourself. It is not as strong as people make it out to be. Strong yes, not OP.

I didn't call it OP although it seems very strong to me, especially early on. Since I do run wolfpacks quite a bit that might be part of the reason.
Other faction fleets seem to have less issues with Gensoukyou in general, probably because they just drown them in cheaper capitals.
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Zoppy

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What I'm saying is it's no Excelsior (from the Ship/Weapon Pack 1.15.1 mod).

Is that the super broken bounty frigate that can take on a fleet by itself?
Because if yes then that's not much of a qualifier, no faction ship should be anywhere close to that.

I made a tongue in cheek comment. I made several counterstatements as to why it's not OP. Those are the qualifiers, not the silly comment you clipped by itself. I agree it's strong. An officered/player piloted Pirate Falcon set up right with either charge launchers or a sabot+harpoon combo is offensively stronger and it costs slightly less. Although the P Falcon is not as much of a pest with its agility. Should you be running wolfpack strategies, then the Miko might indeed be OP. I haven't experienced any other time except my first few fights with the Gensoukyou Manufacture. Where it presents a credible threat. It get's completely owned by capitals with long range weaponry, mass fighters, and or mass fast missile (not torpedo) attacks. Try and pilot it yourself. It is not as strong as people make it out to be. Strong yes, not OP.

I didn't call it OP although it seems very strong to me, especially early on. Since I do run wolfpacks quite a bit that might be part of the reason.
Other faction fleets seem to have less issues with Gensoukyou in general, probably because they just drown them in cheaper capitals.

Questions and thoughts on frigate fleets.

I'm getting quite curious. The range and attack power of the Miko might be too much, but how does a smaller (150'ish K) fleet with Mikos in it fair against mass Tempests? Normally my fleet composition is switched up before massing Tempests becomes a viable choice. Unless it's a themed run. Maybe I should run a few such experiments for the heck of it. I don't how it'd fair against mass afflictors either.

Experiments.

Experiments from some of my ships in my current comp (mid game salvaged ships).
I know sim tests doesn't "really count", but it's an indication.

The Miko was unable to fire let alone land a single shot against an S-moded Victory-class capital in my fleet from the Ship/Weapon Pack 1.15.1 mod. The Victory-class was set to autopilot during some sim tests. Where it was never even shot at because of the range and firepower superioty.
I've hated the Victory-class for years, since it tries to do everything while not having the ordnance points and flux dissapation for half of it... then I got the insane idea of shield shunting it. I love it. Give it a lot of vent rate too and good PD coverage. It's completely bunkers. It pukes out a sea of bullets and everything from Onslaughts to Paragons gets vaporized. Though you got to be aware, as it itself is still a glass cannon despite efforts in increasing armor with hull-mods.

A rather standard geared shield shunted and S-moded Onslaught (XIV) class battleship on autopilot. Had its paint scratched to such a minute degree, that it didn't show up in the green ship profile as damaged armor. Before the Miko was turned to dust.

An S-moded Eagle (XIV) (among the first ships I recovered in the campaign) class cruiser did get fluxed over 50% two times. Didn't have enough range and firepower to spike the Miko down in one or two salvos. However, it had the Miko on the run all the time as the difference in firepower was too much. The Miko was destroyed in the end without the Eagle taking any armor/hull damage.

Whether it's on your team or the enemy's team. An AI driven Miko (players can do some more fanciful stuff) alone really struggles with anything above light cruisers. Despite costing the same DP or more as a cruiser. In a team the Miko weakens key targets (who are focused on other targets or by being covered by many fighters) and get's away before much in the way of retaliation can happen. It takes care of the flanks as it can scoot around the battlefield. Preventing your fleet from getting surrounded too badly. Destroying frigates and destroyers in its wake.

Solutions and more questions.

I guess a "solution" could be to give the Miko a build in hullmod. Weakening it against frigates and destroyers. By like -25% or something and strengthening against cruisers and capitals by 10%. A major role for the Miko is frigate and destroyer hunting... so I don't know how wise that is. The 10% would probably not suffice either, giving it anymore would break it in other ways. Scarabs are also quite deadly to frigates. The Hyperion is deadly to just about anything, if it's player driven and not against a mass of enemies or enemies with 360 shield coverage. But it takes out frigates and destroyers just the same, despite not having that huge range increase. It doesn't quite have the same agility and defensive powers.

For curiosity's sake I tried the same AI tests with the Hyperion.

It was obliterated in the blink of an eye by the Victory-class, but it did manage to land a few hits of no significance.

Due to the Onslaughts rather poor maneuverability and weak rear the Hyperion landed some hits. The slight turn of the Onslaught lend the Hyperion to be exposed to the more deadly firepower from the flank of the Onslaught. The Hyperion tried to step away, to recover, as it was almost overfluxed. It was not far enough from the range of its opponent and it was faced with half a frontal barrage. It couldn't get in range again to use its ability effectively since it risked being shot down... it tried and was shot down.

The Eagle with extended shield coverage among its S-mods. To my surprise made quick work of the Hyperion. I was under the preconcieved notion that a Hyperion was too nimble and had too much spike damage. Maneavering Jets coming in handy I guess.
I was never much of a fan of the Eagle, but this campaign has won me over and these tests cemented it. Phase lances with advanced optics and not the standard graviton beams has been key. Still sort of wish they had at least 700 in base range.

Despite the AI performance of both ships. We all know the Hyperion in player hands is no slacker. The range, agility, and survivablity (and in some cases firepower) of the Miko is even better. So maybe it could use a nerf? Any suggestions?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 12:08:57 PM by Zoppy »
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AngelSpirit

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...(snip long quote)
I'm able to get the Miko to take down the SIM Onslaught, by itself, about 50% of the time. Purely AI control, no officer on either side. Which is actually better than I thought, since the Onslaught can tear through the Miko's shields extremely quickly; it mostly comes down to how effectively the AI remembers to flank. Against something more DP-equivalent, like the Dominator or Eagle, I can get the Miko to win every time.

That's without an officer or any s-mods. Adding in an officer and s-mods makes its abilities shoot up to a degree I affectionately refer to as "mod overpowered". Systems Expertise in particular makes the ship near impossible to pin down and makes its flanking ability truly absurd since just one jump can take it out of weapon range of most ships, and two jumps are enough to flank anything.

It shines more when it's put into situations it can flank stuff. An AI Miko can't (reliably) take down an Onslaught by itself, but two AI Mikos will always win against two Onslaughts; the Onslaughts will get separated, the Mikos will gang up on one and flank it, and from there the battle is over.

What is your Miko loadout? I usually run mine with Kinetic Blaster + Heavy Blaster + Xyphos Wing, Traditional Module + Unstable Injector + Inter-Gap Flux Linking Module, and an officer with at least Target Analysis and Systems Expertise. Other stuff like Defensive Targetting Array, ITU, Hardened Subsystems, and Escort Package I will sometimes consider too depending on my needs, but the ship's OP budget is too tight to fit them without s-mods.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2024, 04:36:48 PM by AngelSpirit »
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Zoppy

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Facing off against the Miko is something:
:D How often does an enemy Miko have Kinetic Blasters and Heavy blasters? Regarding the sim Onslaught. It's weak and not much of a representative of what you'd find in the wild. Whereas the Sim Miko is closer.

The problem with many of the ships mentioned is, they don't have 360 degrees of shielding. In many enemy fleets they are much better covered by their allies. The Eagle I made with 3 Phase Lances, Advanced Optics, Integrated Targeting Unit, and Extended Shields eats the Sim Miko up every time in seconds. The Miko in enemy hands isn't all too much of a threat, although pesky to kill against many setups. The other guy was having trouble against the Gensoukyou fleets, which was where I kept my focus.

The Miko in player hands is something else entirely. I never used it much in the endgame in other campaigns and stuck with the Gensoukyou theme. Decided to be a little silly and do something very Unluddic, making all my earlier points about its weaknesses moot (except the EMP weakness):
I put two Cryoflamers on the Miko, S-modded Expanded Mags, Gensoukyou Resonator, and Hardened Shields.
Gave it the hull mods: Traditional Module, Shield Conversion - Front, Resistant Flux "This is key, as it's incredibly vulnurable to EMP damage even with shields up", Sage's Core, Insulated Engine Assembly, and Solar Shielding. With just some mining drones. Rest into flux vents.
The officer has Elite Helmsmanship, Combat Endurance, Elite Field Modulation, Targeting Analysis, Elite Energy Weapon Mastery, and Ordnance Expertise. Lil Bugger is taking down fleets by itself. The AI is having a bit of trouble solo'ing fleets above 250k. Anything less seems to be good, unless they have a lot of EMP damage, it still doesn't like it, when the enemy has a ton of Graviton Beams and Tachyon Lances (flameout and death). So yeah, you are right. The Miko is overpowered.

Should it be a special bounty ship?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2024, 05:55:09 PM by Zoppy »
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xenapan

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Miko has a fantasy auto loadout which is quite good for sustained dps - it uses double hailstorm (lots of emp) and it triggers the dichromatic lotus butterfly at the highest possible fire rate
Smod sage's core, shield conversion front. Then add the intergap flux linking module.

But really the endgame loadout is cryoblasters. My fleet of 5 mikos regularly beats 300dp-500dp fleets
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Zoppy

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Miko has a fantasy auto loadout which is quite good for sustained dps - it uses double hailstorm (lots of emp) and it triggers the dichromatic lotus butterfly at the highest possible fire rate
Smod sage's core, shield conversion front. Then add the intergap flux linking module.

But really the endgame loadout is cryoblasters. My fleet of 5 mikos regularly beats 300dp-500dp fleets

When I gave the Miko I experimented on Cryoblasters. The AI would miss with almost all its shots against anything faster than a orbital station. In every battle it's DPS as shown by the Detailed Combat Results mod is lower, than when I gave it Cryoflamers. Maybe it works better in mass? 10 Cryoblasters is a lot. I've also never tried it without the traditional module. The penchant for range could certainly be trouble with these slow moving projectiles. I'll give it a try. I don't mean, to come off as petulant.

*just came back and tried the Cryoblasters on the Miko. It works so much better without the traditional module.

I fooled around with the Cryoflamer build removing and changing hullmods to fit The Inter-Gab Flux Module while keeping the Traditional Module (works very well with the Cryoflamers). As it allows for so much more aggression albeit only temporarily. Removing stuff such as Solar Shielding, Resistant Flux Conduits, and Insulated Engine Assembly replacing them with an Automated Repair Unit hull mod . The AI took down 2 Sim Onslaughts and a Sim Conquest at the same time. The frontal assault from all of them were devastating. However, the inter-gab allowed it to hold on, till it flanked one of the Onslaughts. Then it took them down one by one. Thinking it would only work because the capitals are slow etc etc. I also tried it against 2 Onslaughts and 6 random frigates and it won again. The teleportation is what allows the vast majority of its shenanigans. Would removing that fix the ship?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2024, 07:46:10 AM by Zoppy »
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PoDH

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This mod is wild lol. The Traditional Module and Inter Gap Flux Module are just insane. Though my favourite is the Fast Battleship boost. The fact that it also increased the mass of the ship turns the game into a ping pong. And it actually have some tactical fun cause you can yeet some really dangerous ship away to like "I'm dealing with you later" or "GET OFF FROM MY SPACESTATION!"
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