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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24)

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Author Topic: [0.97a] Realistic Combat 2.0.4  (Read 260647 times)

Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.34.0
« Reply #975 on: December 01, 2023, 01:45:43 PM »

This isn't necessarily an issue with initial beam intensity. Even when I turned initial beam intensity down to 300, damage done by paladin occasionally goes over 1000, while it's normally under 10, so it seems to be a bug somewhere else. But it is much rarer as you decrease initial beam intensity though. Can you not replicate this issue?

Uh-oh, how should I try to replicate this issue?

Edit: If the beam intensity exceeds the effective total armor of the ship, then it hits the citadel and, if the beam is a burst beam, can inflict a critical malfunction, inflicting additional damage.  I had thought you meant damage besides this effect.  I wonder if you find the effect too powerful because I could remove it.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2023, 05:50:02 PM by Liral »
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kjolnir

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.34.0
« Reply #976 on: December 01, 2023, 04:07:41 PM »

Apologies if this has been asked somewhere in here already, but is there a list of other mods compatible with this one?  Or does this one change things so drastically that other mods are all incompatible?
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Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.34.0
« Reply #977 on: December 01, 2023, 05:53:56 PM »

Apologies if this has been asked somewhere in here already, but is there a list of other mods compatible with this one?  Or does this one change things so drastically that other mods are all incompatible?

Welcome to the forum and thanks for considering Realistic Combat!  This mod runs with all other mods but makes the content of many of them not work as intended or become unbalanced.  I have a short list of mods that have problems and am thinking of how to at least reduce the worst problems.

synchrotron

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.34.0
« Reply #978 on: December 01, 2023, 08:14:20 PM »


Uh-oh, how should I try to replicate this issue?

Edit: If the beam intensity exceeds the effective total armor of the ship, then it hits the citadel and, if the beam is a burst beam, can inflict a critical malfunction, inflicting additional damage.  I had thought you meant damage besides this effect.  I wonder if you find the effect too powerful because I could remove it.

https://imgur.com/ZGihaqq

This is one shot with paladin on an Atlas with shields down, it does over 5000 damage, and burst intensity limit is set to 1500. So is this citadel damage? Do you get damage numbers this high in this scenario?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2023, 08:18:56 PM by synchrotron »
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kjolnir

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.34.0
« Reply #979 on: December 01, 2023, 08:18:48 PM »

Welcome to the forum and thanks for considering Realistic Combat!  This mod runs with all other mods but makes the content of many of them not work as intended or become unbalanced.  I have a short list of mods that have problems and am thinking of how to at least reduce the worst problems.

Thanks!  And yeah, I like the idea of more realistic space combat, due at least in part to The Expanse ;-)

I'm presuming this list is what's in the "Compatibilities" tab of the original post?  I had a bit of trouble parsing it but I can go back and take a look.
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Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.34.0
« Reply #980 on: December 02, 2023, 05:44:43 AM »

https://imgur.com/ZGihaqq

This is one shot with paladin on an Atlas with shields down, it does over 5000 damage, and burst intensity limit is set to 1500. So is this citadel damage? Do you get damage numbers this high in this scenario?

Ok, replicated and patched!

Thanks!  And yeah, I like the idea of more realistic space combat, due at least in part to The Expanse ;-)

I'm presuming this list is what's in the "Compatibilities" tab of the original post?  I had a bit of trouble parsing it but I can go back and take a look.

I'm glad you like the idea of Realistic Combat.  The list is indeed in the compatibilities tab.  I'm also open to working with modders to make Realistic Combat more compatible with their mods; please let them know.

Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.35.0
« Reply #981 on: December 02, 2023, 05:51:25 AM »

Patch 1.35.0 is out! Burst beams no longer inflict critical malfunctions.

synchrotron

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.35.0
« Reply #982 on: December 02, 2023, 07:36:40 AM »

Patch 1.35.0 is out! Burst beams no longer inflict critical malfunctions.

Thanks, that issue is fixed. However now with the intensityLimits tachyon lance deals only 10s of damage at close range, but if you turn the intensityLimits higher then weapons like paladin goes back to doing thousands of damage per shot. It seems like there's a bug in the damage calculations somewhere?
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Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.35.0
« Reply #983 on: December 02, 2023, 04:18:16 PM »

Thanks, that issue is fixed. However now with the intensityLimits tachyon lance deals only 10s of damage at close range, but if you turn the intensityLimits higher then weapons like paladin goes back to doing thousands of damage per shot. It seems like there's a bug in the damage calculations somewhere?

The damage calculation code works as intended, but the weapon modification code produces wildly different results because it simply multiples and caps damage.  For example:

WeaponDamage (Vanilla)Damage (Realistic Combat)
Tactical Laser75Min(1,200, 6 * 75) = Min(1,200, 450) = 450
Burst PD Laser350Min(1,500, 5 * 350) = Min(1,500, 2,100) = 1,500
Paladin PD System1,000Min(1,500, 5 * 1,000) = Min(1,500, 5,000) = 1,500

To be intense at combat range, big lasers must be very intense at close range because they diffract over distance; therefore, getting close with a big laser will punch through armor.  I lack an easy fix.  I could:
  • Change the weapon spec modification code to cap the initial intensity of only point defense lasers, but anti-ship lasers would remain powerful at close range
  • Prohibit lasers from penetrating citadel armor entirely, but lasers would be much weaker against hull unless I also hiked their damage, which I could make independent of their diffraction
  • Hike laser flux costs, which would reduce laser damage availability but, because beam weapon specs lack flux per second methods, the UI would still read the original, lower CSV flux per second of the weapon.

I have tried all these fixes at once and found ship-based lasers and moreso DEMs to be good against shields but weak against hull, point defense weapons just powerful enough to destroy missiles, and all laser flux costs balanced against their power.

I want to know what you think of these ideas and any you might have, too.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 05:31:24 PM by Liral »
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Gameciel

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.35.0
« Reply #984 on: December 02, 2023, 10:11:58 PM »

Thanks, that issue is fixed. However now with the intensityLimits tachyon lance deals only 10s of damage at close range, but if you turn the intensityLimits higher then weapons like paladin goes back to doing thousands of damage per shot. It seems like there's a bug in the damage calculations somewhere?

The damage calculation code works as intended, but the weapon modification code produces wildly different results because it simply multiples and caps damage.  For example:

WeaponDamage (Vanilla)Damage (Realistic Combat)
Tactical Laser75Min(1,200, 6 * 75) = Min(1,200, 450) = 450
Burst PD Laser350Min(1,500, 5 * 350) = Min(1,500, 2,100) = 1,500
Paladin PD System1,000Min(1,500, 5 * 1,000) = Min(1,500, 5,000) = 1,500

To be intense at combat range, big lasers must be very intense at close range because they diffract over distance; therefore, getting close with a big laser will punch through armor.  I lack an easy fix.  I could:
  • Change the weapon spec modification code to cap the initial intensity of only point defense lasers, but anti-ship lasers would remain powerful at close range
  • Prohibit lasers from penetrating citadel armor entirely, but lasers would be much weaker against hull unless I also hiked their damage, which I could make independent of their diffraction
  • Hike laser flux costs, which would reduce laser damage availability but, because beam weapon specs lack flux per second methods, the UI would still read the original, lower CSV flux per second of the weapon.

I have tried all these fixes at once and found ship-based lasers and moreso DEMs to be good against shields but weak against hull, point defense weapons just powerful enough to destroy missiles, and all laser flux costs balanced against their power.

I want to know what you think of these ideas and any you might have, too.

Sounds like a nice fix. Also is it from this mod that changed the vanilla skill effects? Lots of them adds 10% combat readiness when all weapons are covered by certain skills. But since in fact making CR up to 100 is VERY easy and cheap, it simply sounds useless. Does it calculate and stack go above 100? Or perhaps this is going to be changed in future updates?

Also dealing damage with aircrafts like perdition wing to heavy targets might made too difficult. I'm fine with this alone, but it's made not worthwhile to play carriers. It could be balanced with increasing bomber damage (may scale with skills)? Cuz if it doesn't breach, it's simply pure heavy casualties from AA while playing nothing. But real problem is under vanilla realistic combat, we don't have much way to boost single hit strength of small crafts. Or maybe add some hullmods for modifying the bomber ammunition for stronger armor piercing with cost of reduced range etc.?
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Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.35.0
« Reply #985 on: December 03, 2023, 07:57:07 AM »

Sounds like a nice fix.

It keeps even such powerful beam weapons as Tachyon Lances from from penetrating citadel armor, which in hindsight seems unrealistic for any laser to do.

Quote
Also is it from this mod that changed the vanilla skill effects? Lots of them adds 10% combat readiness when all weapons are covered by certain skills. But since in fact making CR up to 100 is VERY easy and cheap, it simply sounds useless. Does it calculate and stack go above 100? Or perhaps this is going to be changed in future updates?

Yes.  I should make CR harder to obtain.

Quote
Also dealing damage with aircrafts like perdition wing to heavy targets might made too difficult. I'm fine with this alone, but it's made not worthwhile to play carriers. It could be balanced with increasing bomber damage (may scale with skills)? Cuz if it doesn't breach, it's simply pure heavy casualties from AA while playing nothing. But real problem is under vanilla realistic combat, we don't have much way to boost single hit strength of small crafts. Or maybe add some hullmods for modifying the bomber ammunition for stronger armor piercing with cost of reduced range etc.?

Uh-oh, not good.  Is only the Perdition having trouble?  I doubt the weapon aboard the Perdition is the problem because its Hammer Torpedo (single) deals 1,500 damage, enough to citadel all but the hardest targets, which you could do with such heavier-armed fighters as the Cobra, which carries a 4,000 damage Reaper.  Maybe you mean the Piranha bomber, bombs from the Standard Bomb Bay of which deal only 400 damage.  I could increase the damage of weapons with the "BOMB" hint but wonder what the consequences would be for modded content.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 08:07:41 AM by Liral »
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Gameciel

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.35.0
« Reply #986 on: December 03, 2023, 02:43:17 PM »

It keeps even such powerful beam weapons as Tachyon Lances from from penetrating citadel armor, which in hindsight seems unrealistic for any laser to do.

Then I recommend scale citadel penetrating with fire-delay, or you might call it "Charging time". Say my armor is 2500: IF - the charging time of a laser that hit's me is longer than 2.5s (just an example), AND IF - it deals enough damage just as RC calculated, THEN - "Penetrate" ELSE - "No Penetrate", even if damage looks like it's enough, it just wiped out armor! As this is basically true when considering beam weapons that's "burst" while it's whole point is to concentrate and intensify charges to penetrate. Longer charging time MEANS that it should penetrate well. Throwing tons of energy without concentration only heats armor up.

For long lasting beam damage it could also be true if programming allows, IF - damage+ AND IF - time+, THEN - Penetrate.

For balancing reasons I also recommend using fire-delay for lasers from missiles. It'll be awkward if Dragonfire doesn't penetrate anything XD.

Quote
Uh-oh, not good.  Is only the Perdition having trouble?  I doubt the weapon aboard the Perdition is the problem because its Hammer Torpedo (single) deals 1,500 damage, enough to citadel all but the hardest targets, which you could do with such heavier-armed fighters as the Cobra, which carries a 4,000 damage Reaper.  Maybe you mean the Piranha bomber, bombs from the Standard Bomb Bay of which deal only 400 damage.  I could increase the damage of weapons with the "BOMB" hint but wonder what the consequences would be for modded content.

Yh pretty much the 1500 single hit stops it from penetrating hardest armor, or at least it takes me dozens of waves to take down Onslaught. Not a problem with Cobra. I say it could be problematic cuz Perdition is the top damage dealer within "Low Tech". If I just wanna play "Low Tech" then I also sort of have weak carriers. Like I said it's fine if you meant it and don't want to change anything here, it's only a recommendation that you could also put whether a CR or BOMB-damage multiplier into commander skill (for "using correct ammunitions").
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Gameciel

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.35.0
« Reply #987 on: December 03, 2023, 02:48:36 PM »

For balancing reasons I also recommend using fire-delay for lasers from missiles. It'll be awkward if Dragonfire doesn't penetrate anything XD.

Thought twice, maybe more realistic that lasers form missile always penetrate if damage is high enough. Cuz by any means if I somehow managed to shorten missile fire-delay. The effectiveness of warhead SHOULD remain same.
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Helldiver

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.35.0
« Reply #988 on: December 04, 2023, 09:49:30 AM »

Patch 1.35.0 is out! Burst beams no longer inflict critical malfunctions.

Is there a toggle for this? I can't seem to find it. I think it'd be useful for some mods to be able to keep the critical damage for burst beams. In my current weapon rework for example, while lasers are only PD weapons and ineffective against any armor, there are some particle burst beams intended to punch through citadels.
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synchrotron

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.35.0
« Reply #989 on: December 04, 2023, 01:00:17 PM »


To be intense at combat range, big lasers must be very intense at close range because they diffract over distance; therefore, getting close with a big laser will punch through armor.  I lack an easy fix.  I could:
  • Change the weapon spec modification code to cap the initial intensity of only point defense lasers, but anti-ship lasers would remain powerful at close range
  • Prohibit lasers from penetrating citadel armor entirely, but lasers would be much weaker against hull unless I also hiked their damage, which I could make independent of their diffraction
  • Hike laser flux costs, which would reduce laser damage availability but, because beam weapon specs lack flux per second methods, the UI would still read the original, lower CSV flux per second of the weapon.


Why is initial intensity only a problem for PD lasers? Is it because they're balanced around short range in vanilla?

Why would lasers be weaker against hull? And what do you mean independent of diffraction?
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