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Author Topic: [0.97a] Realistic Combat 2.0.4  (Read 282544 times)

Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.36.0
« Reply #1005 on: December 24, 2023, 02:04:14 AM »

I must be doing something wrong,

Hey, thanks for playing my mod.  I'm happy to help explain what happened. I hope you'll feel less frustrated--and more excited!  First, Realistic Combat totally converts combat: read the Field Manual to understand what's changed and what it means.

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because all this mod has done to my game is make all weapons except missiles utterly worthless

Missiles in Realistic Combat are fast and maneuverable, but point defense can stop them.

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and combat impossible to win. 

With the right knowledge, you can win in Realistic Combat.

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Probably related to all the other mods I'm running

I can't guarantee Realistic Combat's balance with all other mods, but I'm working on it.

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but smaller ships just stay out of range and this mod makes it impossible to fire at them because of the way it reduces weapon range relative to target maneuverability.  So I just get chipped away to death and there's nothing I can do about it. 

Just as intended, those small ships are too maneuverable for your weapons to hit at range.  Bring strikecraft or small ships of your own to chase them down.

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Beam weapons don't work against them either, because as far as I can tell they don't do any damage to shields, armor, or hull at all.

With beam weapons, you need to get close enough for the beam to be focused enough to pierce the surface armor of the target.

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In the rare instance where I fight a ship where I can get in range, nearly every weapon I've equipped fails to actually destroy the ship I'm shooting at. 

To destroy a ship, you need either a lot of small weapons fire to, per the Realistic Combat damage model, destroy all non-essential compartments beneath the surface armor, or a few huge hits penetrating the citadel.

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I'll completely destroy all the armor on the side of the ship facing me and should be hitting hull or ship interior and...nothing happens.  The target ship's hull stops deteriorating at a certain point and no matter how much I hit the ship, no new damage is done.

Just as intended, armor never ablates in Realistic Combat but instead remains a barrier that fire either penetrates or does not, and the armor cell diagram represents non-essential compartments for the player to destroy.

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None of this makes any sense at all.

Hope it makes sense now.  Here for any further questions you might have.

I don't have issues quite that extreme, but it still seems to me that ballistic weapons are rather weak against targets with lots of armor, and beam weapons, while strong against shields, are very weak against hull. A tachyon lance does less than 100 in damage.

As intended, thick armor deflects low damage fire entirely.  Use higher damage weapons.  Use beam weapons to deal damage over time.

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Is it possible to add a toggle to allow armor to be stripped away?

You can re-enable the vanilla damage model by setting "replaceDamageModel" to false in Toggles.json.

Yeah, for fact-finding purposes, I created a new game, used console commands to give myself a Paragon and four Tachyon Lances.  Loaded up one of those crappy pirate freight combat conversion ships, and was barely doing anything to it despite being in range and hitting with all four lances.

This mod makes no sense to me at all.

Beam weapons can penetrate only surface armor and are for damage over time against enemy non-essential compartments and exposed systems. 

Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.0
« Reply #1006 on: December 24, 2023, 02:08:50 AM »

Patch 1.37.0 is out!  Ion beam intensity is not diffracted over distance because the rate of ions matters rather than their focus on a point.  Add "doNotModify" to the Tags column of the ship_data.csv wing_data.csv row of a ship or wing that you do not want Realistic Combat to modify.

synchrotron

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.36.0
« Reply #1007 on: December 24, 2023, 06:10:13 AM »

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As intended, thick armor deflects low damage fire entirely.  Use higher damage weapons.  Use beam weapons to deal damage over time.

But tachyon lance isn't a low damage weapon? It's a burst damage weapon, but it does <100 damage at point blank range. You can't deal any damage over time with it.
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kjolnir

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.0
« Reply #1008 on: December 24, 2023, 08:07:38 AM »

"read the Field Manual to understand what's changed and what it means."

Internet mistake #1, just because I don't like something doesn't mean I'm not familiar with it.  I've read the manual.  I'm saying combat feels way worse, not better, and certainly not "realistic."

"Missiles in Realistic Combat are fast and maneuverable, but point defense can stop them."

Small missiles are 1-2 shotting Frigate class ships and below, this makes them WAY more effective than every other weapon in the game."

"With beam weapons, you need to get close enough for the beam to be focused enough to pierce the surface armor of the target."

This is silly.  You're telling me we've mastered AI to the point where it tried to kill us and of course mastered faster than light travel, but somehow optics are stuck in the pre-Victorian days, so a giant space battleship has to be arm's reach from an enemy to harm it with a beam weapon?

Mmkay.

"Just as intended, armor never ablates in Realistic Combat but instead remains a barrier that fire either penetrates or does not, and the armor cell diagram represents non-essential compartments for the player to destroy."

I hope you realize how unrealistic this is.  And this is coming from a guy who's shot at armored stuff.  Armor that gets turned to swiss cheese is nowhere near as effective (as in, not effective at all) as fresh armor.

"To destroy a ship, you need either a lot of small weapons fire to, per the Realistic Combat damage model, destroy all non-essential compartments beneath the surface armor, or a few huge hits penetrating the citadel."

This isn't realistic either.  Destroying the bridge will render a ship highly combat ineffective.  Destroying the engines will render it immobile.  Multiple penetrating hits are going to quickly vent the internal atmosphere.  I shouldn't need to destroy every square inch of interior space in a ship to finish it off.

"Hope it makes sense now."

Nope.

"Beam weapons can penetrate only surface armor and are for damage over time against enemy non-essential compartments and exposed systems.  "

What I'm telling you here is 4 x Tachyon Lances never managed to drop the shields of a junker pirate freighter converted into a combat ship.  I barely put a scratch on them at all.  Apparently I should've gotten to within spitting distance, which totally does not and in no way completely and utterly negates the purpose of a mod that drastically extends the range of already long-range weapons.

If you wanted combat to be realistic, then I should be able to take out enemy engines on unshielded ships with a single railgun shot from across the map, i.e. The Expanse.  Or hit even a large capital ship with a single nuclear missile and obliterate it.  Ships are almost entirely unprotected against any real weapon strikes because actual space ships can't afford the mass real armor would create.
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Helldiver

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.0
« Reply #1009 on: December 24, 2023, 10:25:38 AM »



Imagine coming to someones freely posted mod thread, the creator answering politely trying to help and you responding with this passive-agressive clownery. Just so you know - you're not the smart one here. Even worse when you make big claims about how things should work without actually knowing what you're talking about - or lying about the mod's features. And by the way - the mod graciously provides you with countless levers and settings to alter every part of it to your liking - but that didn't factor into your rant, somehow.

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kjolnir

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.0
« Reply #1010 on: December 24, 2023, 12:25:28 PM »



Imagine coming to someones freely posted mod thread, the creator answering politely trying to help and you responding with this passive-agressive clownery. Just so you know - you're not the smart one here. Even worse when you make big claims about how things should work without actually knowing what you're talking about - or lying about the mod's features. And by the way - the mod graciously provides you with countless levers and settings to alter every part of it to your liking - but that didn't factor into your rant, somehow.

LOL right, his point-by-point analysis of my four sentences - wherein I admit up front the fault is probably mine - was totally cool, me RESPONDING TO THAT, that's the problem here.

*insert Robert Downey Jr. Eyeroll meme here*
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WakelessREX

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.0
« Reply #1011 on: December 26, 2023, 08:15:41 AM »



Imagine coming to someones freely posted mod thread, the creator answering politely trying to help and you responding with this passive-agressive clownery. Just so you know - you're not the smart one here. Even worse when you make big claims about how things should work without actually knowing what you're talking about - or lying about the mod's features. And by the way - the mod graciously provides you with countless levers and settings to alter every part of it to your liking - but that didn't factor into your rant, somehow.

LOL right, his point-by-point analysis of my four sentences - wherein I admit up front the fault is probably mine - was totally cool, me RESPONDING TO THAT, that's the problem here.

*insert Robert Downey Jr. Eyeroll meme here*

You do seem like a self entitled nob @kjolnir

@Liral I have some questions about your settings, you might have answered elsewhere so apologies if a reiteration.
In the "ShipSpecs" settings are the speed values additive?
specifically these
"    "Increase maximum speed of corresponding ship class":"",
    "maxSpeedBonuses":{
   "DEFAULT":0,
   "FIGHTER":300,
   "FRIGATE":250,
   "DESTROYER":175,
   "CRUISER":125,
   "CAPITAL_SHIP":50"

can we do negative values in those sections? like -50 for capital ships?
If not is there someway to decrease ship speeds using your mod?

similarly are the "multiply" values additive multiplication or? For instance take acceleration
    "Multiply acceleration of corresponding ship class":"",
    "accelerationFactors":{
   "DEFAULT":1,
    "FIGHTER":2,
   "FRIGATE":0.75,
   "DESTROYER":0.80,
   "CRUISER":0.85,
   "CAPITAL_SHIP":1
    },

Does this mean that frigates are only getting 75% of their acceleration or that they are getting 175% of their acceleration (as in an additional 75% on top of their base?)? I havent played the mod yet so I assume its the former but cap ships and being faster but fighters being fastest made me think perhaps im wrong in my assumption.


Also being new to Starsector is there any mod that decreases the size of fighter sprites? Or perhaps make non fighters larger? Something like that.

Finally thank you so much for your very user friendly and adjustable mod, I basically bought starsector after I saw this was a mod because I knew I could adjust the game to my own wierd specific preferences. Thank you so much!
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Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.0
« Reply #1012 on: December 27, 2023, 09:59:29 PM »

I have some questions about your settings, you might have answered elsewhere so apologies if a reiteration.
In the "ShipSpecs" settings are the speed values additive?
specifically these
"    "Increase maximum speed of corresponding ship class":"",
    "maxSpeedBonuses":{
   "DEFAULT":0,
   "FIGHTER":300,
   "FRIGATE":250,
   "DESTROYER":175,
   "CRUISER":125,
   "CAPITAL_SHIP":50"

can we do negative values in those sections? like -50 for capital ships?

Yes!

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similarly are the "multiply" values additive multiplication or? For instance take acceleration
    "Multiply acceleration of corresponding ship class":"",
    "accelerationFactors":{
   "DEFAULT":1,
    "FIGHTER":2,
   "FRIGATE":0.75,
   "DESTROYER":0.80,
   "CRUISER":0.85,
   "CAPITAL_SHIP":1
    },

Does this mean that frigates are only getting 75% of their acceleration or that they are getting 175% of their acceleration (as in an additional 75% on top of their base?)?

Just multiply!  Frigates, for example, get only 75% of their original acceleration.

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Also being new to Starsector is there any mod that decreases the size of fighter sprites? Or perhaps make non fighters larger? Something like that.

I know not.

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Finally thank you so much for your very user friendly and adjustable mod, I basically bought starsector after I saw this was a mod because I knew I could adjust the game to my own wierd specific preferences. Thank you so much!

Awwwwww, thank you!  I'm amazed that this mod inspired you to buy Starsector because of its adjustability.  You're welcome for the mod.  Please tell me what you adjust and how, that I might do likewise.

WakelessREX

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.0
« Reply #1013 on: December 29, 2023, 03:33:05 PM »

I have some questions about your settings, you might have answered elsewhere so apologies if a reiteration.
In the "ShipSpecs" settings are the speed values additive?
specifically these
"    "Increase maximum speed of corresponding ship class":"",
    "maxSpeedBonuses":{
   "DEFAULT":0,
   "FIGHTER":300,
   "FRIGATE":250,
   "DESTROYER":175,
   "CRUISER":125,
   "CAPITAL_SHIP":50"

can we do negative values in those sections? like -50 for capital ships?

Yes!

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similarly are the "multiply" values additive multiplication or? For instance take acceleration
    "Multiply acceleration of corresponding ship class":"",
    "accelerationFactors":{
   "DEFAULT":1,
    "FIGHTER":2,
   "FRIGATE":0.75,
   "DESTROYER":0.80,
   "CRUISER":0.85,
   "CAPITAL_SHIP":1
    },

Does this mean that frigates are only getting 75% of their acceleration or that they are getting 175% of their acceleration (as in an additional 75% on top of their base?)?

Just multiply!  Frigates, for example, get only 75% of their original acceleration.

Quote
Also being new to Starsector is there any mod that decreases the size of fighter sprites? Or perhaps make non fighters larger? Something like that.

I know not.

Quote
Finally thank you so much for your very user friendly and adjustable mod, I basically bought starsector after I saw this was a mod because I knew I could adjust the game to my own wierd specific preferences. Thank you so much!

Awwwwww, thank you!  I'm amazed that this mod inspired you to buy Starsector because of its adjustability.  You're welcome for the mod.  Please tell me what you adjust and how, that I might do likewise.


If you dont mind I have some more questions.
What does this value do in the maps config file
"standOffFactorWithObjectives" you have this and the withoutobjectives set to 0.75 which I imagine is a multiplication value, what of though?

In addition is the Radar in your mod not supposed to have a circular UI integration? A UI border if you understand what im saying? The radar works but its borderless which for some reason makes it very visually hard for me to read. I will try to turn it off and use that other Radar mod in hopes that it is different.

Finally can you explain what the two option setting categories int he "fleet retreat" settings do.
"Loss threshold" fearless: 1.0 would mean what excatly?

Thank you
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Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.0
« Reply #1014 on: December 30, 2023, 07:14:57 PM »

If you dont mind I have some more questions.
What does this value do in the maps config file
"standOffFactorWithObjectives" you have this and the withoutobjectives set to 0.75 which I imagine is a multiplication value, what of though?

The standoff between fleets on a combat map with or without objectives is the respective standoff factor of map height.  I have corrected the documentation accordingly.

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In addition is the Radar in your mod not supposed to have a circular UI integration? A UI border if you understand what im saying? The radar works but its borderless which for some reason makes it very visually hard for me to read. I will try to turn it off and use that other Radar mod in hopes that it is different.

Yeah, I started with Combat Radar and reduced it to just the indicators, removing even the circular border.  I wonder why you find a circular border would help you read the radar and if you're alone with this problem because I might have removed too much!

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Finally can you explain what the two option setting categories int he "fleet retreat" settings do.
"Loss threshold" fearless: 1.0 would mean what excatly?

Outnumber threshold is the factor of player deployed and reserve combat deployment points below which the enemy fleet will retreat.  Loss threshold 1.0 would mean that the enemy fleet will not retreat unless all its ships have destroyed; i.e., never. 

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Thank you

You're welcome!

Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.1
« Reply #1015 on: December 30, 2023, 07:26:33 PM »

Hotfix 1.37.1 is out! Clarified documentation of Map.json and documented FleetRetreat.json.

TheEpicAlbanian

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.1
« Reply #1016 on: December 30, 2023, 08:58:22 PM »

Hotfix 1.37.1 is out! Clarified documentation of Map.json and documented FleetRetreat.json.

Hi Liral, It seems that line 6 of FleetRetreat.json is improperly formatted, causing the mod to crash on startup. Once I fixed the formatting, everything was working as expected.
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Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.1
« Reply #1017 on: December 31, 2023, 05:42:49 AM »

Hotfix 1.37.2 is out!  Fixed formatting of FleetRetreat.json.

NuclearWill

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.2
« Reply #1018 on: December 31, 2023, 12:12:11 PM »

I just want to start off by saying that I love this mod. I think its really cool and fun and I enjoy most of the changes done to combat. There are still some things I am a bit confused about and don't quite understand like how armor, damage, penetration, and the damage types works and how to deal substantial damage to larger ships as even Condors feel really tanky and take a while to chip away their hull. I've read the manual and it sort of helps but it's hard to tell exactly whats going on, especially when damage is used both for penetration and actual damage done. I'm guessing piercing weapons are better against armor and shields while not doing as much damage to the hull. Explosive damage is less effective against armor penetration and shields, however it deals more hull damage. Frag damage seems really bad against everything so it seems to be only good against missiles and light fighters? Since armor doesn't decrease, wouldn't piercing always be effective regardless of what the armor "health" diagram says? Since armor purely acts as a damage subtractor instead of a separate health bar, wouldn't single shot, high damage, weapons be more effective as opposed to quick firing, low damage weapons, even if they have the same dps? Would swarm missiles be far inferior to a single torpedo of the same ordnance class as that torpedo will overcome the armor far better than the many littler missiles? Is there a use for fragmentation damage outside of point defense? I have modded weapons which deal frag damage intended for use against exposed hull however now that hull is never exposed due to armor never degrading, they would be useless no?

EDIT: After reading through the config files and reading through the damage model I think I understand everything in that regards now. So ignore all of that. I do think adding some example damage calculations to the guide might help people get a grasp of how things work but reading the file descriptions helped.

Although many have complained about three dimensional targetting, I think it makes sense and enjoy it for the most part. I just wish it was more forgiving as even when I am in range, I struggle to precisely aim my fixed weapons on target, even against larger vessels. Weapons that require a charge up before firing are near impossible to shoot since getting off target resets the time to charge. I've seen the red circle leading target get bigger but I don't know how to make that happen. Preferably, I would rather just make the circle bigger all the time so its much more forgiving.

Finally, is there an option to disable angled armor? I am mixed about whether I want to remove it or not as it does make it more realistic and give the option to angle your ships to increase armor, however it does make some ships far stronger than intended as they have naturally slanted armor. Maybe if there some way or weapon that ignores armor slanting? Fragmentation is mostly useless outside of PD however it would make sense to reason that it would also ignore armor slanting entirely as it  would be akin to High Explosive rounds which damage via concussive force and spraying shrapnel in all directions. This would give the few weapons which did do frag damage a little unique quirk and reason to use them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:57:54 PM by NuclearWill »
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Liral

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Re: [0.96a] Realistic Combat 1.37.2
« Reply #1019 on: January 01, 2024, 09:36:12 AM »

I just want to start off by saying that I love this mod. I think its really cool and fun and I enjoy most of the changes done to combat.

Awwww, thank you!  I'm glad you've enjoyed it.  Welcome to the forums, too!

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EDIT: After reading through the config files and reading through the damage model I think I understand everything in that regards now. So ignore all of that. I do think adding some example damage calculations to the guide might help people get a grasp of how things work but reading the file descriptions helped.

Please tell me what example you have in mind for me to add.

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Although many have complained about three dimensional targetting, I think it makes sense and enjoy it for the most part. I just wish it was more forgiving as even when I am in range, I struggle to precisely aim my fixed weapons on target, even against larger vessels.

I want to make Three Dimensional Targetting work for people and would like your suggestions.  For now, to fire fixed weapons you can at best hold down the fire button (or enable autofire) and rotate your firing arc across the lead indicator.

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Weapons that require a charge up before firing are near impossible to shoot since getting off target resets the time to charge. I've seen the red circle leading target get bigger but I don't know how to make that happen. Preferably, I would rather just make the circle bigger all the time so its much more forgiving.

Noted.  I wonder how I might distinguish a weapon that is charging up from one that is charging down.

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Finally, is there an option to disable angled armor? I am mixed about whether I want to remove it or not as it does make it more realistic and give the option to angle your ships to increase armor, however it does make some ships far stronger than intended as they have naturally slanted armor. Maybe if there some way or weapon that ignores armor slanting? Fragmentation is mostly useless outside of PD however it would make sense to reason that it would also ignore armor slanting entirely as it  would be akin to High Explosive rounds which damage via concussive force and spraying shrapnel in all directions. This would give the few weapons which did do frag damage a little unique quirk and reason to use them.

Not without disabling the entire damage model.  In the long run, I want to balance highly angled ships.
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