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Author Topic: Vanguard is terrible  (Read 23016 times)

Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #90 on: February 23, 2022, 02:24:54 PM »

In the case of the Vanguard, this means that Polarized Armor is a constant 25% Armor/EMP damage reduction unless you decide to put Makeshift Shield on it.
Vanguard cannot take Makeshift Shields.
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Timid

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2022, 09:32:48 PM »

In the case of the Vanguard, this means that Polarized Armor is a constant 25% Armor/EMP damage reduction unless you decide to put Makeshift Shield on it.
Vanguard cannot take Makeshift Shields.
They should, new buff to makeshift shield generator in converting damper ships to makeshift shield'd ships to encourage vanguard variety :)

Drazan

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2022, 02:06:46 AM »

What if the real vanguards are the friends we made along the way?
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Üstad

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #93 on: May 11, 2022, 11:03:06 AM »

Vanguard should have the new dreadnought armor, it should have very high armor but less protection per armor. Currently the armor gets weared off too quickly, the damper field and damper field AI suck. Hopefully this would compensate them. It's useful for chasing away other frigates but that's not really what people expect from an elite frigate.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #94 on: May 11, 2022, 11:14:15 AM »

Vanguard should have the new dreadnought armor, it should have very high armor but less protection per armor. Currently the armor gets weared off too quickly, the damper field and damper field AI suck. Hopefully this would compensate them. It's useful for chasing away other frigates but that's not really what people expect from an elite frigate.
With every buff, Vanguard can shrug of enough to kill a destroyer before it dies.  The big problem is squeezing in Polarized Armor on officers when I have other skills I want on them (and did not get Officer Training).  If Vanguard cannot get Polarized Armor, then it is not resilient enough.  As is, Vanguard does not feel elite enough to justify its cost.  It is good for a Lasher or Centurion tier frigate.

Sad thing though, is Berserker is even worse than Vanguard.  Same 6 DP cost, but bigger and slower (because it is a destroyer), shoots mostly forward, and does not use missiles.  I hoped it would be a smaller Rampart (which is legitimately good for a cheap zombie AI block), but Berserker is a piece of junk.

It seems Vanguard is only elite when compared to Berserker.
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Billhartnell

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #95 on: May 11, 2022, 12:06:35 PM »

It does have one not-so-obvious advantage in campaign over the high tech frigates, especially if the player has the industry skill that repairs 25% hull and armor damage for free after every fight. They only use 10% CR per deployment while high tech frigates use 20%,  you can deploy the same vanguard 3x in one day without malfunctions and recover it all in 4 days, assuming no CR bonuses. So you can send them to both the main fight and the pursuit without worrying about CR. Some other low-tech & midline frigates (except the hound) can do this too but most of them are slower than the Vanguard, especially when you account for burn drive.

That said, my main memory of actually piloting a Vanguard was transferring command to one of them thinking I could duel some remnant frigate that was hijacking my comm relay (I think a Glimmer) only for all my weapons to get stunlocked because I couldn't block the EMP damage, forcing me to damper field away and call in a Tempest to kill it for me.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 12:30:41 PM by Billhartnell »
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #96 on: May 11, 2022, 12:40:46 PM »

Vanguard is one of more the more expensive frigates to buy, produce, or restore, and 6 DP is not exactly cheap for a frigate out of the 160 or so DP budget, at least not one that performs more like a 4 or 5 DP frigate.

That said, my main memory of actually piloting a Vanguard was transferring command to one of them thinking I could duel some remnant frigate that was hijacking my comm relay (I think a Glimmer) only for all my weapons to get stunlocked because I couldn't block the EMP damage, forcing me to damper field away and call in a Tempest to kill it for me.
This is a reason why Polarized Armor, among other things, is a must.  Resistant Flux Conduits and Polarized Armor will make the ship highly resistant to EMP.

Ships without shields need the following hullmods:  Armored Weapon Mounts, Heavy Armor, and Resistant Flux Conduits.

Ships without shields also need the following skills:  Impact Mitigation and Polarized Armor.
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Brainwright

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #97 on: May 11, 2022, 06:14:16 PM »

This is a reason why Polarized Armor, among other things, is a must.  Resistant Flux Conduits and Polarized Armor will make the ship highly resistant to EMP.

Ships without shields need the following hullmods:  Armored Weapon Mounts, Heavy Armor, and Resistant Flux Conduits.

Ships without shields also need the following skills:  Impact Mitigation and Polarized Armor.

A good alternative to this build is the Damage Control skill plus Automated Repair mod.  You can still add any of the extras mentioned above, and they'll work great, but with this, the ship can survive most fights, even if it isn't technically effective.  Plus, Support Doctrine skill will give you damage control on ships without a captain, so you could field a few of these to stuff up the battle space.

Also, I wouldn't use missiles on this thing without ECCM.  Neither Annihilators or Breachers are going to hit frigates without it, so let that OP be used against the ships most likely to be pressuring it.  I mean, if you have to, take off one missile rack and drop cap until you can fit ECCM.  It makes that much of a difference.  It's better than Expanded Racks for small missile slots.

As for the rest, the Vanguard has two primary flaws : the primary ballistic weapons are all flux hungry.  You can't fit them onto this ship and expect any longevity.  Needlers are still king here, but with a brawler like the Vanguard, it's questionable whether the god gun can save it.  It's more likely to miss in close quarters combat, as relative velocities increase fast, so it can waste its shot often and lose the deterrent value of the weapon.  Conversely, all the other small ballistic weapons need massive arrays to be effective.  There's just no winning here.  Secondly, the point defense setup of the ship doesn't genuinely work.  When fielding this ship, I have to fill three turrets with point defense weapons to provide effective protection.  The two on the sides are needed for Salamanders, but they will commonly fail to swipe reapers or hammers fired at close range, so you need one on the nose, just like the Lasher.

That's three weapon slots just to keep this ship from being crippled in a basic engagement.  And it works!  However, it's kind of silly and belies the apparent weapon variety advertised by the slots.

Giving railguns base point defense behavior might help and make them worth their ridiculous flux costs.  I would also like to see swarmers work more effectively against
fighters, as most are too nimble to care and heavy fighters just burn them with pd weapons.  I would also like to see a small missile rack that fires flares or decoys.  Salamanders and extreme range missile barrages make going through life without an omnishield a pain.

All this said, the Vanguard is my kind of ship.  I like it.  I don't use it very often because I end up focusing on surviving rather than fighting, just like I do in larger ships.  I usually have a pair for their cheap logistics, clearing out that last Pather Dram so it doesn't mob me and drag the Battlestation into a fight before I can raid it for supplies.  It's useful.

The primary flaws of the Vanguard are flaws of all low-tech ships.  The price of the Vanguard just makes that even more painful.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #98 on: May 11, 2022, 06:54:14 PM »

Quote
A good alternative to this build is the Damage Control skill plus Automated Repair mod.  You can still add any of the extras mentioned above, and they'll work great, but with this, the ship can survive most fights, even if it isn't technically effective.  Plus, Support Doctrine skill will give you damage control on ships without a captain, so you could field a few of these to stuff up the battle space.
That is good for practical immunity to weapon and engine knockout.  (Not true immunity, but repair times are so fast they might as well be.  Good times when I used it in older releases.)  But it does not affect armor, only hull, which is not bad either.  I would not use this instead of armor, but on top of it.

Support Doctrine only gives non-elite Helmsmanship, Combat Readiness, and Impact Mitigation.  It does not give Damage Control or other combat skills.

Quote
Also, I wouldn't use missiles on this thing without ECCM.  Neither Annihilators or Breachers are going to hit frigates without it, so let that OP be used against the ships most likely to be pressuring it.  I mean, if you have to, take off one missile rack and drop cap until you can fit ECCM.  It makes that much of a difference.  It's better than Expanded Racks for small missile slots.
I use Atropos or Sabots.  AI will use them, and Atropos is cheap, and Sabots are reliable.  Annihilators is useful mostly as a chaff screen to block incoming fire, not actually killing ships.  I rarely use Breach because AI rarely fires them.  Also, I tend to use two missile mounts instead of three, mounting a gun in the center composite hardpoint, usually Light Mortar.

Quote
As for the rest, the Vanguard has two primary flaws : the primary ballistic weapons are all flux hungry.  You can't fit them onto this ship and expect any longevity.  Needlers are still king here, but with a brawler like the Vanguard, it's questionable whether the god gun can save it.  It's more likely to miss in close quarters combat, as relative velocities increase fast, so it can waste its shot often and lose the deterrent value of the weapon.  Conversely, all the other small ballistic weapons need massive arrays to be effective.  There's just no winning here.  Secondly, the point defense setup of the ship doesn't genuinely work.  When fielding this ship, I have to fill three turrets with point defense weapons to provide effective protection.  The two on the sides are needed for Salamanders, but they will commonly fail to swipe reapers or hammers fired at close range, so you need one on the nose, just like the Lasher.
I use Railguns if I have them, or Light Autocannons if I do not.  I save the needlers for phase ships.

My preferred loadout:  Light Mortar in the center hardpoint, Sabot racks in the other two hardpoints.  Center turret is a light machine gun, side turrets are vulcans.  The two turrets between the sides and center are railguns.

For PD, Vanguard needs Point Defense and IPDAI to have a chance to shoot down missiles.  That combo will also boost the range of ballistics.  IPDAI will turn the guns into PD weapons, make PD weapons track much better against missiles, and ePD will add +200 range to them.  Both have damage bonuses against missiles.  Basically, an alternative Ballistic Rangefinder that works on any small PD gun.

Guns being flux hungry is not much of a problem for Vanguard because it does not have shields to overload from.  Ships with no shields can get away with being beyond flux-neutral more than other ships that use shields.  Vanguard can handle two railguns, and light mortar is cheap and efficient.  It is not flux-neutral, but the railguns should be able to fire long enough before they stop firing for whatever reason aside from max flux (like no enemy in range).
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Brainwright

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #99 on: May 11, 2022, 09:02:52 PM »

Guns being flux hungry is not much of a problem for Vanguard because it does not have shields to overload from.  Ships with no shields can get away with being beyond flux-neutral more than other ships that use shields.  Vanguard can handle two railguns, and light mortar is cheap and efficient.  It is not flux-neutral, but the railguns should be able to fire long enough before they stop firing for whatever reason aside from max flux (like no enemy in range).

Fast firing weapons start petering out once you hit max cap.  It's not fun playing a brawler and your vulcans are sputtering.
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Üstad

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2022, 05:18:11 AM »

Vanguard should have the new dreadnought armor, it should have very high armor but less protection per armor. Currently the armor gets weared off too quickly, the damper field and damper field AI suck. Hopefully this would compensate them. It's useful for chasing away other frigates but that's not really what people expect from an elite frigate.
With every buff, Vanguard can shrug of enough to kill a destroyer before it dies.  The big problem is squeezing in Polarized Armor on officers when I have other skills I want on them (and did not get Officer Training).  If Vanguard cannot get Polarized Armor, then it is not resilient enough.  As is, Vanguard does not feel elite enough to justify its cost.  It is good for a Lasher or Centurion tier frigate.

Sad thing though, is Berserker is even worse than Vanguard.  Same 6 DP cost, but bigger and slower (because it is a destroyer), shoots mostly forward, and does not use missiles.  I hoped it would be a smaller Rampart (which is legitimately good for a cheap zombie AI block), but Berserker is a piece of junk.

It seems Vanguard is only elite when compared to Berserker.
Vanguards only defence is armor and its armor will be very much damaged in the process, which means half of the defense is permanently gone. The ship just cant survive, that's why it has rugged construction hullmod and specialization in failure is just a bad design.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #101 on: May 12, 2022, 05:34:19 AM »

Fast firing weapons start petering out once you hit max cap.  It's not fun playing a brawler and your vulcans are sputtering.
Yes, but how long does it take to reach the cap, and how long does the ship fire continuously?  For a ship without shields, only weapon fire raises flux.  AI, kind of dumb as it is, often has breaks after a few seconds caused by having no target to shoot at.

In my experience, AI Vanguards fire for a bit and build up flux to about a third or half a flux bar, loses its lock on target and stops firing (before flux maxes out), and by the time it gets a lock on target again, flux has cooled off to (near) zero.

Vanguards only defence is armor and its armor will be very much damaged in the process, which means half of the defense is permanently gone. The ship just cant survive, that's why it has rugged construction hullmod and specialization in failure is just a bad design.
It does not need to survive, just kill more than ships than it is worth.  Ships with shields often take damage too while killing their targets.

The failure of Vanguard is it is too expensive for what it does.  If I remember correctly, its price tag is about 30,000 to produce at Orbital Works, more than most frigates.  Slash that down to 20,000 or less.  (Most frigates are worth less than 20,000).  Also, lower its DP cost down to 4 or 5.  (It is probably a bit better than Lasher or Centurion against some targets.)

Rampart is another similar ship (no shields, has Rugged Construction).  Worth 15 DP, but outfitted right, it will tank and punch like a 20+ DP ship and demolish enemy ships.  It is a budget Dominator.  More likely to die, but it is a zombie ship that can shrug off death easier than most ships.

Zombie ships, those with Rugged Construction, are nice for those who want pristine fleets (less likely to get d-mods) and probably those who want d-mods (reduced penalties).

There are some normal ships that can remove shields with Shield Shunt, bulk up on armor, and do alright, but the problem is they do not have Rugged Construction and will suffer from d-mods after recovery unless player has Hull Restoration.  They are not zombie ships like Vanguard and Derelict drones.
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Serenitis

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #102 on: May 12, 2022, 10:06:29 AM »

The failure of Vanguard is it is too expensive for what it does. 
100% this.
As a ship that's supposed to be used and recovered frequently, it just costs far too much.
A Lasher does kind of the same thing and costs less than 1/3 as much to recover.
And as shieldless frigate, Vanguard will die more-or-less every battle.

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Zombie ships, those with Rugged Construction, ... and probably those who want d-mods (reduced penalties).
Ehhhh. Yes and no.
Rugged Const. allowing you to ignore part of the d-mod effects is both cool and good.
But having it prevent new d-mods from being applied is kinda bad. Because more d-mods = lower recovery costs, which is the thing you're after when you have an undead fleet.
Vanguard really needs that reduction because it's so expensive, but seldom gets it.
I generally avoid Vanguards unless they already have a pile of d-mods on them, so they're at least within the realms of sanity for recovery cost (which doesn't happen often).

Rugged is a cool and interesting hullmod, but it kinda half-conflicts with itself when it's on an expensive ship.
Maybe not a conflict as such, but rather lacks "synergy" where you'd expect it.
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Megas

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #103 on: May 12, 2022, 10:26:11 AM »

For me, the point of undead ships is not to reduce costs, but for two other reasons:
1) Zombie ships dropped by the enemy are likely to be pristine if they were pristine before getting killed by my fleet.  Ships without Rugged Construction always have one or more d-mods.  Zombie ships are handy if I pick up ships off the ground and use them to fight while out in the field.  (I sometimes bring extra weapons to outfit such ships.)

2) Enable much more casual gameplay by not caring if it dies as long as the fleet survives (no TPK) because it is more likely to avoid getting any d-mods in the first place, and if it does, it only gets one which may be erased quickly by a lucky die roll from Hull Restoration.  At worst, I can scuttle the d-modded ship because there are more pristine hulls where they came from (enemy loot).

I generally avoid Vanguards unless they already have a pile of d-mods on them, so they're at least within the realms of sanity for recovery cost (which doesn't happen often).
I use them because (when I grind human bounties) I keep recovering pristine hulls from the enemy faster than I lose them (by scuttling them as soon as my Vanguard casualties get a d-mod during recovery screen), and Vanguards are not totally awful for combat.

I would not build or restore Vanguards.  They are too expensive for that.  I get nearly all of my Vanguards by looting them from the enemy.

Yes, ships with Rugged Construction are less likely to get d-mods, but it cannot be too hard for someone really determined to get them on a ship or two.  I guess it can be annoying for someone who wants a whole fleet of zombie ships with five d-mods.

Rugged is a cool and interesting hullmod, but it kinda half-conflicts with itself when it's on an expensive ship.
Maybe not a conflict as such, but rather lacks "synergy" where you'd expect it.
Do not forget Rugged Construction reduces penalties from d-mods, like those that affect combat stats.  That was what I mainly had it mind for those that want to run a d-mod fleet.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 10:42:51 AM by Megas »
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Serenitis

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #104 on: May 12, 2022, 11:48:26 AM »

Rugged Const. allowing you to ignore part of the d-mod effects is both cool and good.
The reduction for recovery costs is the #1 draw for using d-mods imo. Anything else is just a neat bonus.
And not getting to use that reduction is a huge downside.
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