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Author Topic: Vanguard is terrible  (Read 22186 times)

Locklave

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Vanguard is terrible
« on: January 12, 2022, 02:01:35 PM »

It's not a premium heavy low tech frigate and does not fill any role in a fleet except that ship that explodes 45 seconds into every fight.

Dampening field
When it was being described, back before it's inclusion in the game, I clearly misunderstood how it was intended to work. It is functionally useless as it exists. I incorrectly assumed it would function when the ship is actually trading fire with the enemy, which would actually make it a useful system. 600 armor is a joke without shields and no other real way to mitigate damage.

Rugged Construction
Specialization in failure. It needs a system that prevents it from being destroyed every fight. This doesn't make up for anything, it still costs you tons of crew and supplies to recover it every fight.

Damage output
Too low due to terrible survival time, too low due to weapons ranges. Why didn't this ship get a Ballistic Rangefinder?

Cost
4 times the cost of a Lasher. The Lasher is a better ship, I would take 1 Lasher over a Vanguard in all cases.

This ship is meant to be good in AI control.

Imagine throwing 20 of these at a station. Not gonna happen even against a level 1 station.
Now imagine throwing 20 Lashers at that station. Interesting that the Lashers might actually be able to win the fight.

Put simply, I do not want this ship in my fleet. I will never buy one or recover one and if I get one for free I'll mothball it till I can sell it. That makes me a sad panda.
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Grievous69

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2022, 02:10:17 PM »

How did you build them tho? It's a tricky little ship in a sense it can be a great distraction up until the late game, unless it meets a HIL or a burst beam such as Phase lance. It's usefulness depends a bit too much on the enemy's weapons. Someone mentioned this in another thread but it could use a buff where when recovered, it immediately starts with x% CR just so you don't waste so many supplies on them.
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FooF

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2022, 02:21:24 PM »

I had 3 of them in my fleet and they are wonderful little buggers. The trick is to realize Dampener Field is a mini-vent so they rarely overflux so load them up with weapons. They also benefit greatly from Armor skills. I haven't tried them without officers so maybe base ones are trash but when officer'd they last longer than my officer'd Tempests. The issue is that attrition will kill them eventually so in protracted fights, you do need to retreat them but even if they get a D-mod, it's only 50% as harmful. D-mods don't do a lot to them.

Their damage output drops off a lot as ships get bigger but I like to load them up with all guns and the tend to do better than even Lashers with AAF, IMO.
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Timid

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2022, 02:24:52 PM »

Damper AI sucks but that's just the cons of Vanguard really.

Wish it can just "hack" and damper before strike weapons begin firing.

Yeah, the player can use it effectively, but that just kinda sucks and doesn't address the issue of a right-click damper field not even bothering to be used when a reaper is right in front of them.

SCC

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2022, 02:25:15 PM »

I used only a single one so far and it performed so badly, I scrapped it fairly quickly. It doesn't seem appealing as a flagship, either.

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2022, 02:37:26 PM »

Officered scarabs are my go-to for frigates. They're great for killing small stuff and capping points quickly, and feel much more survivable than anything else I've tried (except probably SO hyperion, but I don't really like doing SO stuff anymore for a variety of reasons). When I tried vanguard, it felt like they were mostly useless against enemies with high damage weapons (any large energy/HE, many medium weapons like heavy blaster, phase lance, assault chain gun and heavy mauler, HE missiles, warthogs and most bombers, ion weapons, etc.). It's just way too likely to encounter that stuff.

I think lashers suck too, so saying they're maybe better than lashers is not saying much to me lol.
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Draba

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2022, 03:00:54 PM »

Early game for both my runs in the new version was exclusively low tech/new toys, and to me the Vanguard seems the weakest of the bunch by far.
In battles involving bigger guns frigate armor/hull does very little without shields(even if it's high frigate level).

Had some industry so if it dies that isn't even a problem, it just doesn't do anything notable before it inevitably gets worn down.
Centurion has a bit worse mounts and speed, better flux stats and a good omni shield for only 4 DP, high tech frigates are usually much more durable, monitor is basically unkillable, ...
IMO buffing armor(hull is a limit anyway) or trading in some slots for an M composite/missile would make it stand out more.
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Nightstrasza

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2022, 03:14:51 PM »

Damper field could use a buff to make the ship immune from having guns and engines disabled, otherwise vanguard would probably be better off with a makeshift shield generator but then might as well just grab a centurion instead.
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Null Ganymede

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2022, 04:51:06 PM »

5 ballistic 3 composite @ 6dp is a lot of dakka. You must get value out of that before armor and hull run out. Running way hot on flux, capacity over vents, and and relying on dampener as a mini-vent is the way to go. Aggressive or reckless officer is probably a must, it lets you play with elite PD skill machine gun builds too.

Also keep in mind 1 point into Industry is mandatory when doing lowtech tanking shenanigans.
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TontonBoo

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2022, 04:54:50 PM »

Quote
I think lashers suck too, so saying they're maybe better than lashers is not saying much to me lol.

Why so much hate to these little guys ? They do their part. Cheap and expendable. I'd take 10 of those over an Onslaught any day of the week. And they'd probably win too.

I'm pretty much with OP about the Vanguard though. I can't seem to get the AI to do a good job with it. My fondness of scrappiness dissipates after the 5th time in a row  the same ship blows up.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2022, 06:13:05 PM »

Quote
I think lashers suck too, so saying they're maybe better than lashers is not saying much to me lol.

Why so much hate to these little guys ? They do their part. Cheap and expendable. I'd take 10 of those over an Onslaught any day of the week. And they'd probably win too.

I'm pretty much with OP about the Vanguard though. I can't seem to get the AI to do a good job with it. My fondness of scrappiness dissipates after the 5th time in a row  the same ship blows up.
Expendable is the opposite of what I want. That means wasting supplies and crew losing and then recovering ships when I could use more durable alternatives that won't die. Lashers are way too squishy to fight the big scary end game threats, and don't really present any benefits over alternatives for early/mid game IMO.

Having a few strong ships that can leverage your limited officers is much more valuable than having a large number of weak ships IMO.
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Gergin

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2022, 06:27:49 PM »

Why not ships that can leverage your officers well but you also don't sweat too much if they die?

Elite Point Defense lets you do some crazy stuff.  LMGs are NUTS.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2022, 07:07:56 PM »

Why not ships that can leverage your officers well but you also don't sweat too much if they die?

Elite Point Defense lets you do some crazy stuff.  LMGs are NUTS.
All ships cost money when they die, even if just the supplies and crew to recover them. I'm never happy about that, until I no longer care about money, in which case I just want the most powerful/effective ships per DP. Lasher and vanguard do not fit that bill either IMO.

Elite point defense is fine on any ship that can mount small/medium ballistics. Nothing special about lasher or vanguard there.
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Gergin

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2022, 07:10:06 PM »

Why not ships that can leverage your officers well but you also don't sweat too much if they die?

Elite Point Defense lets you do some crazy stuff.  LMGs are NUTS.
All ships cost money when they die, even if just the supplies and crew to recover them. I'm never happy about that, until I no longer care about money, in which case I just want the most powerful/effective ships per DP. Lasher and vanguard do not fit that bill either IMO.

Elite point defense is fine on any ship that can mount small/medium ballistics. Nothing special about lasher or vanguard there.

Except the Vanguard can fit A LOT of them and has an ability providing it some good tank.  Mix it with some heavier DPS frigates and it should do just fine.
Basically the Vanguard puts massive flux pressure on a target and then can vibe in Dampener while your anti-armor stuff (like a Brawler) takes advantage of the overflux'd target.
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TontonBoo

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Re: Vanguard is terrible
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2022, 07:23:16 PM »

Quote
Expendable is the opposite of what I want
Fair enough. Just of note they can soak damage intended for other valuable assets and can even tank a big fighter/missile screen on their own cause small frame speed PD and ballistic.

Quote
don't really present any benefits over alternatives
They embody the hit-and-run tactic quite well and if you're willing to swap them when things get dicey they're a nice opener for any battle. To get the big boys to chase after a swarm of flies is endless fun.

Quote
Vanguard puts massive flux pressure on a target and then can vibe in Dampener while your anti-armor stuff (like a Brawler) takes advantage of the overflux'd target

Definitely gonna try that next.

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