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[Timid]

it's ok rugged construction is getting a buff.

also the vanguard with 2 railguns, 3 atropos, 2 light machine guns, and 1 light mortar is a neat loadout

[Üstad]

Spoiler

Fast firing weapons start petering out once you hit max cap.  It's not fun playing a brawler and your vulcans are sputtering.

Yes, but how long does it take to reach the cap, and how long does the ship fire continuously?  For a ship without shields, only weapon fire raises flux.  AI, kind of dumb as it is, often has breaks after a few seconds caused by having no target to shoot at.

In my experience, AI Vanguards fire for a bit and build up flux to about a third or half a flux bar, loses its lock on target and stops firing (before flux maxes out), and by the time it gets a lock on target again, flux has cooled off to (near) zero.

Vanguards only defence is armor and its armor will be very much damaged in the process, which means half of the defense is permanently gone. The ship just cant survive, that's why it has rugged construction hullmod and specialization in failure is just a bad design.

It does not need to survive, just kill more than ships than it is worth.  Ships with shields often take damage too while killing their targets.

The failure of Vanguard is it is too expensive for what it does.  If I remember correctly, its price tag is about 30,000 to produce at Orbital Works, more than most frigates.  Slash that down to 20,000 or less.  (Most frigates are worth less than 20,000).  Also, lower its DP cost down to 4 or 5.  (It is probably a bit better than Lasher or Centurion against some targets.)

Rampart is another similar ship (no shields, has Rugged Construction).  Worth 15 DP, but outfitted right, it will tank and punch like a 20+ DP ship and demolish enemy ships.  It is a budget Dominator.  More likely to die, but it is a zombie ship that can shrug off death easier than most ships.

Zombie ships, those with Rugged Construction, are nice for those who want pristine fleets (less likely to get d-mods) and probably those who want d-mods (reduced penalties).

There are some normal ships that can remove shields with Shield Shunt, bulk up on armor, and do alright, but the problem is they do not have Rugged Construction and will suffer from d-mods after recovery unless player has Hull Restoration.  They are not zombie ships like Vanguard and Derelict drones.

[close]

Shielded ships can vent and they don't depend solely on armor. Perfection in failure is just wrong design. As for rampart it's surviviable as long distance support ship, gauss and hurricane missile. On short range against sizeable AI fleet it will be destoryed. Rest of the drones meant to be easy targets anyway. Also Vanguard can't even long distance kite like rampart for reasons.

[Megas]

Shielded ships can vent and they don't depend solely on armor. Perfection in failure is just wrong design. As for rampart it's surviviable as long distance support ship, gauss and hurricane missile. On short range against sizeable AI fleet it will be destoryed. Rest of the drones meant to be easy targets anyway. Also Vanguard can't even long distance kite like rampart for reasons.

Shielded ships may or may not rely on armor, but they may not win flawlessly against a similar or greater opponent.  The point was shielded ships can and will take damage too because the shields eventually drop from losing the flux war or AI stupidity.  In addition, shielded ships that are high in flux (and controlled by AI) often attempt to flee, which really bites high-tech ships with horrible shot range.

I use Mark IXs and Cyclone Reaper on Rampart.  Cheap and effective, at least against human fleets.

Vanguard is not supposed to kite.  It is supposed to brawl and keep shooting until it or the enemy dies.  At best, it can take out a destroyer or a few frigates before it dies, but as long as it kills more than its weight in DP, that is okay.

[Rojnaz]

it's ok rugged construction is getting a buff.

I'm sorry, where says rugged construction is getting a buff?

in the blog post? I don't find it 

[Alex]

(I think I mentioned it on the forum somewhere? Basically I have a note to make it make the ship cheaper to repair up after it's recovered, whether it's by getting it to start with some hull/CR, or by some other means.)

[Rojnaz]

That's nice, that will make using rugged construction ships slightly more attractive!

About Vanguard in battle survivability, I suggest ships with rugged construction could have bit better "minimum armor value"(Residual armor?), a harder hull makes sense I suppose.

[Alex]

I think they're actually just fine in battle; I've had good success using them against high-end Ordos, even. Just have to bring enough of 'em; they work in packs - if you deploy one or two, sometimes they'll do something and sometimes they'll run into a few HILs and fizzle out, but if you have a bunch it averages out into consistent good performance - and they synergize well with other Vanguards. It's just the recovery cost that's too high, making this a still-winning-but-too-expensive proposition.

[Rojnaz]

Welp, you're right! Vanguard actually works good in company of more Varguards and shield shunt ships, I suppose is because ships with shields tend to retreat to vent leaving Vanguard alone.

Next time I play I'll do a fleet with more Vanguards!

[Üstad]

Shielded ships can vent and they don't depend solely on armor. Perfection in failure is just wrong design. As for rampart it's surviviable as long distance support ship, gauss and hurricane missile. On short range against sizeable AI fleet it will be destoryed. Rest of the drones meant to be easy targets anyway. Also Vanguard can't even long distance kite like rampart for reasons.

Shielded ships may or may not rely on armor, but they may not win flawlessly against a similar or greater opponent. 

Shielded ships may take damage whereas shieldless ship certaily will and they will falter because of that especially a small ship like vanguard

[Brainwright]

Shielded ships may take damage whereas shieldless ship certaily will and they will falter because of that especially a small ship like vanguard

Shields are only endless if the ship can disengage, which the Vanguard is well positioned to refuse.

[Rusty Edge]

Look up the function of vangaurds in historical warfare, and try employing your vangaurd frigates in the same way.
They don't HAVE to engage the heavy hitters. They are designed to rush capture points, while engaging scouts and stalling the enemy to establish a tactical advantage for the rest of your fleet.
 After the initial phase,  they are best used to gaurd your flanks and chase down stray frigates.

 Imo, if you are using Vangaurds to engage heavy cruisers, capitols, or anything with a heavy laser, you are doing it wrong.

[Igncom1]

I've been having fun with my derelict operations vanguards with two assault guns, a torpedo, and five duel machine guns.

At the very least they live longer then my hounds and cerberus do!

[Alices]

I typically use this ship as a "distraction with survivability" or something along those lines. It can do very well against midline destroyers and works as a great distraction. The base-armor value is unmatched for it's size, so this thing can take a hell of a beating before going down.

This is my AI build, with basic skills in the combat tree. My Vanguard generally takes a two or three other frigates down with it before imploding.

Capacitors: 1
Vents: 10

Mods:
1. Armored Weapon Mounts (3)
2. Heavy Armor (8)
3. Expanded Missile Racks (8)
4. Resistant Flux Conduits (3)
5. Insulated Engine (3)

Weaponry:

A: Atropos (Single)
L: Light Autocannons
V: Vulcans
G: Light Assault Gun

   .--A--.
 A/L G L\A 
| V /  \ V |
  \------/