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Author Topic: [0.97a] Realistic Combat 2.0.4  (Read 282030 times)

Gameciel

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #315 on: August 12, 2022, 11:36:43 PM »

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From the short time I spent trying it, in mission AI battles torpedoes behave weirdly. AI would shoot reapers at nothing and they'd die after traveling a short distance.
Huh, when you say die, do you mean flame out or be destroyed by point defense?

I got this issue as well. Take a reaper, shoot it and it decays at vanilla range. But guided missiles extended fine. I took some other mods like Unusual and Morehullmods, and they still extend the torpedo range based on vanilla. So likely that the vanilla value is not modified, I guess?
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GirlRat

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #316 on: August 13, 2022, 01:50:52 AM »

I played it a bit more, mainly early game stuff. Borer drones on Shepherds and Ventures are kinda a lot more lethal than they should be. I get that frigates(and some hightech destroyers even) are small fry, but they get melted way too quickly by the weakest type of fighter drones.
Lasers in general seem kinda strong, as genuinely awesome long range lasers are to watch. The roles get mixed up for me. What's tac lasers good for again, now that stronger stuff hits just as far
I felt like Atropos felt anemic just like Reapers do. Harpoons work great though.
Longbow sabot bombers don't seem to fire their payload until they're right on top of target enemy ships. Haven't tried other bombers yet.
Ship behavior is also weird. Since they cannot maneuver as easily, the AI makes them Tokyodrift sideways towards the enemy sometimes. Not ideal. Often happened with an AI wolf and the skimmer was wonky too.
Weapons still need a lot of work I feel. Is it intended for vulcan PDs to outrange heavy autocannons and match HVDs and even the gauss cannon? Early game seems like assault gun is useless compared to fragmentation PD like Vulcans.

Maybe some of this stuff is intended, and I need to reread your opening post and guide to understand the armor penetration mechanics better.
When I got used to zooming out, it became much easier to follow what's going on. Though I still preferred to let the AI do the piloting for me, not tired yet of watching cool space fights.
It's an awesome mod. I'll be playing with it more. Can't wait to see how it evolves. Looking forward to updates.
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Liral

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #317 on: August 13, 2022, 04:16:09 AM »

I got this issue as well. Take a reaper, shoot it and it decays at vanilla range. But guided missiles extended fine. I took some other mods like Unusual and Morehullmods, and they still extend the torpedo range based on vanilla. So likely that the vanilla value is not modified, I guess?

Uh oh...

I played it a bit more, mainly early game stuff. Borer drones on Shepherds and Ventures are kinda a lot more lethal than they should be. I get that frigates(and some hightech destroyers even) are small fry, but they get melted way too quickly by the weakest type of fighter drones.
Lasers in general seem kinda strong, as genuinely awesome long range lasers are to watch. The roles get mixed up for me. What's tac lasers good for again, now that stronger stuff hits just as far

Lasers are a mess I'm working on.

Quote
I felt like Atropos felt anemic just like Reapers do. Harpoons work great though.
Longbow sabot bombers don't seem to fire their payload until they're right on top of target enemy ships. Haven't tried other bombers yet.
Ship behavior is also weird. Since they cannot maneuver as easily, the AI makes them Tokyodrift sideways towards the enemy sometimes. Not ideal. Often happened with an AI wolf and the skimmer was wonky too.

No idea how to fix the ai behavior, though attack run range might be something I could adjust.

Quote
Weapons still need a lot of work I feel. Is it intended for vulcan PDs to outrange heavy autocannons and match HVDs and even the gauss cannon? Early game seems like assault gun is useless compared to fragmentation PD like Vulcans.

No.  :-[

Quote
Maybe some of this stuff is intended, and I need to reread your opening post and guide to understand the armor penetration mechanics better.
When I got used to zooming out, it became much easier to follow what's going on. Though I still preferred to let the AI do the piloting for me, not tired yet of watching cool space fights.
It's an awesome mod. I'll be playing with it more. Can't wait to see how it evolves. Looking forward to updates.

Awwwwwww, thank you!   ;D

Draconas

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #318 on: August 13, 2022, 01:25:02 PM »

Quote
Quote
From the short time I spent trying it, in mission AI battles torpedoes behave weirdly. AI would shoot reapers at nothing and they'd die after traveling a short distance.
Huh, when you say die, do you mean flame out or be destroyed by point defense?

I got this issue as well. Take a reaper, shoot it and it decays at vanilla range. But guided missiles extended fine. I took some other mods like Unusual and Morehullmods, and they still extend the torpedo range based on vanilla. So likely that the vanilla value is not modified, I guess?

Previously when playing this mod, I noticed several multi-stage weapons have this issue. There was a built in cannon for something which I think the Ristrezia that is multi stage and just doesn't work with this mod. I noticed that with a few missiles as well. Can't remember them all, but there weren't that many.
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Thoutzan

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #319 on: August 13, 2022, 01:54:34 PM »

I encounter an issue when I aim at smaller targets like a frigate the weapons range are redueced to minimal and cannot hit anything.

Is there a way i can turn off the auto aim feature ?
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Luftwaffles

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #320 on: August 13, 2022, 05:35:21 PM »

I played it a bit more, mainly early game stuff. Borer drones on Shepherds and Ventures are kinda a lot more lethal than they should be. I get that frigates(and some hightech destroyers even) are small fry, but they get melted way too quickly by the weakest type of fighter drones.
Lasers in general seem kinda strong, as genuinely awesome long range lasers are to watch. The roles get mixed up for me. What's tac lasers good for again, now that stronger stuff hits just as far
I felt like Atropos felt anemic just like Reapers do. Harpoons work great though.
Longbow sabot bombers don't seem to fire their payload until they're right on top of target enemy ships. Haven't tried other bombers yet.
Ship behavior is also weird. Since they cannot maneuver as easily, the AI makes them Tokyodrift sideways towards the enemy sometimes. Not ideal. Often happened with an AI wolf and the skimmer was wonky too.
Weapons still need a lot of work I feel. Is it intended for vulcan PDs to outrange heavy autocannons and match HVDs and even the gauss cannon? Early game seems like assault gun is useless compared to fragmentation PD like Vulcans.

Maybe some of this stuff is intended, and I need to reread your opening post and guide to understand the armor penetration mechanics better.
When I got used to zooming out, it became much easier to follow what's going on. Though I still preferred to let the AI do the piloting for me, not tired yet of watching cool space fights.
It's an awesome mod. I'll be playing with it more. Can't wait to see how it evolves. Looking forward to updates.
I do think PD weapons need some kind of adjustment to keep them in their niche, otherwise balancing is going to be way too hard.

I mean, just because they can shoot that far doesn't necessarily mean you want them to, right? Modern C-RAMs aren't limited by projectile speed, they're limited by their targeting computers. Their bullets are even set to self destruct after a certain distance. Starsector PD weapons should probably do that too, or else you could run into serious friendly fire issues from PD shooting at Salamanders...
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MakoMakoMan

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #321 on: August 13, 2022, 07:56:51 PM »

I am absolutely struggling because I am not good at the game and I'm used to just spam SO scarabs with antimatter blaster (frighteningly effective) but this mod just changes everything, it's amazing. I feel like I have to just re-learn the game.

I've thought before how great it'd be to just have longer range across the board and then this is made. Great work, and I really hope I get the hang of this because it's just super cool.

Edit:
After playing it some more, I've really got issues with some range since in my simple mind, I felt like the "order of engagement" should be missiles/torpedoes > projectiles > PD solutions, but PDs very often outrange other projectiles. Going through the forums to see others' opinions, found out that there's some options that can be changed, and decreasing autocannon velocity while increasing cannon velocity is a very viable band aid on the issue(playing some more after this, big issue #2 is fighters have too much range for PDs to first affect them lol). Would be cool if there was a "PD" flag for PD weapons to further customize them, maybe that way specifically PD turrets could have lowered range(less than 2000), but faster turn rates to compensate and have higher accuracy? Maybe a fighter modifier to reduce their range a bit too.

Also, while reading the comments (holy ***, 80% of the discussions go right over my head) someone mentioned the issue of phase skimmers being rendered useless because of the range, and how recoding it would be too difficult. I don't know how hard coding ship systems is, but maybe a simple solution would be to overwrite the effect of phase skimmers with an ultra powerful, short duration temporal shell that reduces damage? Like 500-1000% time dilation for half or a quarter of a second. Would essentially be the same as skimmer, but could actually look even cooler.

I also want to add I find it amazing how everyone is super invested in this mod with their opinions and suggestions and how open minded you(Liral) are in face of all that. A+ mod, A++ modder.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 10:35:00 AM by MakoMakoMan »
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gentulf

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #322 on: August 15, 2022, 07:29:22 AM »

My thoughts on the mod: it's an interesting take on Starsector combat and I like playing Rimworld with Combat Extended, so I was looking forward to trying this one. However, it seems that making this more realistic combat work for space battles is more tricky, it's more difficult to handle the inherent dynamic nature of it together with AI being silly. That said, I believe the mod has a lot of promise but it still requires a ton of work to make it worthwhile.

There are also various technical issues pointed out by other people, the one that's pretty much game-breaking to me is the fact that shields seem to be useless now - tested an Apogee vs a Bonnethead in a sim and in a few seconds the former got overloaded by a barrage from some light autocannons - small ballistic weapons vs a good (0.7 flux/dmg) shield. Also Tachyon lance didn't seem to be doing anything in that fight (to elaborate on this further - the big problem is that after the Apogee could not use its shields any longer, it also got quickly damaged by autocannons because they are kinetic weapons, so have good armor penetration. It could be argued that kinetics should no longer be specialized in shield-busting if they are also good at penetrating armor - they end up being just great for everything, maybe there shouldn't be anti-shield weapons at all? Or maybe it's energy weapons that should have anti-shield potential).
It seems that so much care went into developing armor-related mechanics that shields ended up very neglected by comparison.

So now I'm in an awkward position of not really feeling like playing with RC but going back to vanilla is going to be weird too because how very cramped everything will feel. Anyway, keep up the good work  :)
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XYZZQ

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #323 on: August 15, 2022, 05:03:03 PM »

My thoughts on the mod: it's an interesting take on Starsector combat and I like playing Rimworld with Combat Extended, so I was looking forward to trying this one. However, it seems that making this more realistic combat work for space battles is more tricky, it's more difficult to handle the inherent dynamic nature of it together with AI being silly. That said, I believe the mod has a lot of promise but it still requires a ton of work to make it worthwhile.

There are also various technical issues pointed out by other people, the one that's pretty much game-breaking to me is the fact that shields seem to be useless now - tested an Apogee vs a Bonnethead in a sim and in a few seconds the former got overloaded by a barrage from some light autocannons - small ballistic weapons vs a good (0.7 flux/dmg) shield. Also Tachyon lance didn't seem to be doing anything in that fight (to elaborate on this further - the big problem is that after the Apogee could not use its shields any longer, it also got quickly damaged by autocannons because they are kinetic weapons, so have good armor penetration. It could be argued that kinetics should no longer be specialized in shield-busting if they are also good at penetrating armor - they end up being just great for everything, maybe there shouldn't be anti-shield weapons at all? Or maybe it's energy weapons that should have anti-shield potential).
It seems that so much care went into developing armor-related mechanics that shields ended up very neglected by comparison.

So now I'm in an awkward position of not really feeling like playing with RC but going back to vanilla is going to be weird too because how very cramped everything will feel. Anyway, keep up the good work  :)

I agree that shield are suffering greatly from the changes, and I have been thinking over it quite some time.

1. I wonder if giving "shield armor" value is gonna help with this problem, for example if larger ships or high tech ships have shield that simply nullifies smaller projectiles while having "partial penetrations" like armor does, then it would be more effective and makes for much more dynamic gameplay where weapon choices are even more interesting. (this doesnt need to be that strong, cruiser shield can make MG fire do partial dmg and capital shield can negate mg fire will be plenty of buff

2. In addition or alternatively, giving "shield piercing" and not additional shield damage to kinetic rounds will also be a solution. In fact, this is similar to some shields depicted in sci-fi works, where a shield is more like a force field, meaning that extremely fast kinetic projectile can get through despite being slowed down (basically kinetic round does a bit of dmg to the shield, and gets through with reduced capability, and therefore can be negated by armor) This also comes with the benefit that AI can use their shield effectively with this change (basically they can just keep shield on against kinetics), as in current version their biggest problem is that they are unable to switch shield on and off effectively according to incoming rounds, currently often catching a huge wave of kinetics and overloading.

In fact, this change would makes kinetic weapons even more interesting, since now Large Kinetic weapons have the ability to directly damage small ships, going right through their shield (though their damage is slow lower), while such large kinetic weapons are no longer useful against capital with shield up as their penetration are drastically reduced by the shield. (they can still penetrate armor effectively against capital ships with shield down) Given how the recent cannon nerf, and the fact that there is no vanilla weapon that can do full damage to capital (1500-2250 armor, this calls for at least 1200 damage kinetics to do full damage), one may even consider raising large kinetic weapon damage, making a situation where large kinetic weapons could potentially fully penetrate capitals when their shield are down, but can only do partial/no penetration when the capitals have shields (with their decreased damage on shield, they will be much less useful in this stage)

3. As for energy and HE projectiles, if we implement the changes of [2], then they could be kept as is, this also comes with the change that now energy projectile is a somewhat weaker but effective shield-breaker. Alternatively, one could also suggest that rather than "type of projectile," we should determine whether a projectile can go through shield by their velocity, therefore giving fast HE and energy projectile potential shield piercing ability. However, I am not sure about how easy this is to implement.

Again, thank you Liral for taking care of the project! Please let me know if you think this is feasible or makes logical sense, I would love to see this mod go further!
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XYZZQ

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #324 on: August 15, 2022, 05:05:57 PM »

I encounter an issue when I aim at smaller targets like a frigate the weapons range are redueced to minimal and cannot hit anything.

I think this is intended and written in the mod description. On the flip side, in the mod, frigates INSTANTLY DIE when they catch a full salvo from larger ship, which is quite realistic too.
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MakoMakoMan

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #325 on: August 15, 2022, 06:50:33 PM »

2. In addition or alternatively, giving "shield piercing" and not additional shield damage to kinetic rounds will also be a solution. In fact, this is similar to some shields depicted in sci-fi works, where a shield is more like a force field, meaning that extremely fast kinetic projectile can get through despite being slowed down (basically kinetic round does a bit of dmg to the shield, and gets through with reduced capability, and therefore can be negated by armor) This also comes with the benefit that AI can use their shield effectively with this change (basically they can just keep shield on against kinetics), as in current version their biggest problem is that they are unable to switch shield on and off effectively according to incoming rounds, currently often catching a huge wave of kinetics and overloading.

In fact, this change would makes kinetic weapons even more interesting, since now Large Kinetic weapons have the ability to directly damage small ships, going right through their shield (though their damage is slow lower), while such large kinetic weapons are no longer useful against capital with shield up as their penetration are drastically reduced by the shield. (they can still penetrate armor effectively against capital ships with shield down) Given how the recent cannon nerf, and the fact that there is no vanilla weapon that can do full damage to capital (1500-2250 armor, this calls for at least 1200 damage kinetics to do full damage), one may even consider raising large kinetic weapon damage, making a situation where large kinetic weapons could potentially fully penetrate capitals when their shield are down, but can only do partial/no penetration when the capitals have shields (with their decreased damage on shield, they will be much less useful in this stage)

That change to kinetic would be fantastic if possible, though not as a first priority!

I'd love to see some sort of "roadmap" or priority list because I'm just afraid to voice my opinion on my issues in case everyone else already mentioned them lol, I just tweaked the settings a bit to make it more manageable (upped reload speeds because 25 seconds reload is way too long, and made cannon projectile velocity higher than autocannon because a sniper weapon should have higher range than a PD turret). I wonder if there's was a way to help without hard coding because this mod is quickly becoming one of my favourite and I want to see it reach its full potential.
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #326 on: August 15, 2022, 09:42:12 PM »

A roadmap would be nice, yea. There is a list in the front page of possible future features, which is similar at least.

Shields are currently an issue, I agree.
Did some thinking on Shields, and specifically shield armor. Main issues I see are.
A: Shield armor isn't a vanilla stat, so it has to be derived in some way.
B: Kinetic damage is often in rapidfire kinetic weapons, but still intended to fight larger ships. So Damage comparisons probably make the Needler line, and Machine guns ineffective or useless vs shields.

Having it be based on Shield efficiency, flux/maxflux, Ship size (Fighter/Frigate etc) and maybe shield radius might work, and use weapon size more than damage might work.
Log10 of flux capacity, or Armor/ShieldEfficiency might give useful numbers for actual shield armor.

An entirely different shield mechanic, using the whole Deflection shield thing might also be interesting. Based on how well it penetrates, the projectile might be turned aside to an extent, either missing, or at least hitting the armor at an angle, and likely losing some fraction of speed and penetration power in the process.

---
Of course, the first question really needs to be, How do we want shields to behave? What weapons should be effective and what should be ineffective? And given the intention for realism, what mechanics can be used? I do certainly want to see ineffective shots pinging off of the shield as much as armor.

The big thing seems to be that point defense, normally trading range for massive DPS, gain a massive boost in range while retaining their massive DPS.
I would think that they probably should actually lose some amount of that DPS, simply because they have much longer to shoot at missiles. Alternatively, instead of adding a flat range bonus, you could add a percent bonus, or a combination of the two, so that short-range weapons remain rather short range.

Do you want point defense like the Machinegun to deal less damage, ping off of, or otherwise be ineffective vs Frigates? Destroyers? Cruisers? Capital Ships?
Should this be all small weapons, or just PD? Kinetic? I could absolutely see explosive weapons always bursting on the shield for minimal damage, in much the same way Kinetic usually pierces armor for minimal damage.

Many kinetic weapons are very rapidfire for consistant shield damage regardless of dodging or accuracy concerns, because vanilla shields have no armor. If resistance is in any way based on damage, Needlers, sabots, and machineguns will all be hit similarly, which is probably not ideal.

I honestly can't think of an obvious solution here. Not like with adjusting Frag damage.
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Anduin1357

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #327 on: August 16, 2022, 05:48:52 AM »

IF we're going to do full on realistic combat, may I suggest maybe revamping the damage types? "High-explosive" makes a lot of assumptions on what the damage really is, and I would like to have a way to differentiate between HEAT-style, concussion-style, straight up nuke torpedoes, and maybe a way to get multiple-stage warheads like modern weapons do.

There's also kinetic rod AP and then straight up kinetic slug that spalls the armour.

If there's already a difference between energy beams and bolts, then what about EMP missiles? Those aren't really bolts and get brokenly powerful.

And lastly, any damage taken on top of the sprite is counted as a citadel hit, which makes stuff like flak OP. Space ships are not 2D structures (not to mention that weapons and fighter bays are accessible from the top) and should have the armour on top be considered as armour and then figure some other arrangement out to have and render the hull (citadel) inside.

+++

When in a pursuit situation, the bigger maps can place the flanks too far away, and the distance forwards that they are placed at do not scale with map size or is configurable. All pursuit engagements end up being a literal chase which is funny but not fun. Either allow us to scale the map width separately or add an offset distance to pursuit map flanks.

+++

If the (surface) armour reaches 0 on any part of the ship (maybe when blasted off by high-explosives), I suggest that fragmentation ignore surface armour so that they still have some use even if they can't wreck the stuff further inside.

+++

Fighters end up shrugging off point defense systems, and no hullmod or skills apply to increase damage dealt to fighters or missiles. Is there a conflict somewhere?

+++

Can we at some point have an entirely custom bitmap for armour values so that ships aren't well-armoured all around? Especially engine sections and fighter bays.

+++

CR rating decrease based on hull instead of citadel damage makes less sense, the crew are mostly in the citadel and aren't so affected by hull integrity falling apart outside the citadel armour.

+++

Some comments in the settings would go a long way to documenting what they do.

+++

Fighters can have a really hard time targeting each other, and so do some frigates. Maybe give them a range buff vs fast targets based on manoeuvrability?
Also, a fighter deployment range multiplier would be real nice.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 05:55:21 AM by Anduin1357 »
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MakoMakoMan

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.13.0
« Reply #328 on: August 16, 2022, 08:29:20 AM »

IF we're going to do full on realistic combat, may I suggest maybe revamping the damage types? "High-explosive" makes a lot of assumptions on what the damage really is, and I would like to have a way to differentiate between HEAT-style, concussion-style, straight up nuke torpedoes, and maybe a way to get multiple-stage warheads like modern weapons do.

There's also kinetic rod AP and then straight up kinetic slug that spalls the armour.

If there's already a difference between energy beams and bolts, then what about EMP missiles? Those aren't really bolts and get brokenly powerful.

That doesn't sound like it'd be easy to implement, and there's already quite a few wrinkles to iron out before we get to that point! Also, if the combat system gets too realistic it could end up being a bit of a chore to keep everything in mind, no matter how impressive the depth may be no?

Quote
CR rating decrease based on hull instead of citadel damage makes less sense, the crew are mostly in the citadel and aren't so affected by hull integrity falling apart outside the citadel armour.

I think this feature is already fine as it is! CR doesn't stand for crew readiness ;). It's fine if all the crew's safe but if the rest of the ship is all shredded up, the ship isn't exactly combat ready anymore!

Quote
Some comments in the settings would go a long way to documenting what they do.

+++

Fighters can have a really hard time targeting each other, and so do some frigates. Maybe give them a range buff vs fast targets based on manoeuvrability?
Also, a fighter deployment range multiplier would be real nice.

I think (and hope) that this is something that's coming in the future from what I read, Liral seems to be adding more and more customization features, and I agree that more explanation would be great! And for the fighters issue, it would be fantastic if there could be modifiers specific to fighters to reduce the range of their weapons, that way they can properly fight each other while not being borderline broken against anything below capital sized ships. IMO, fighters and PDs need range restrictions (to like 1000-2000 range), my band aid solution was to reduce the velocity of autocannon fire (which is what PDs and Fighters mainly use) and it made the mod much more useable.
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Liral

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Re: [0.95.1a] Realistic Combat 1.14.0
« Reply #329 on: August 16, 2022, 11:22:45 AM »

Patch 1.14.0 is out! Shield damage model replaced for all projectiles, missiles, and beams: shields take less damage from weaker hits or ticks and more damage from stronger ones.  Ballistic cannon and energy cannon muzzle velocity bonuses increased by thousands across the board, exceeding those of ballistic autocannons and energy autocannons.  Fighter deceleration, turn acceleration, and max turn rate factors doubled. 
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