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[SCC]

What would be the counterplay to a Hyperion with longer PPT? Even currently, the best you can do is hope it makes a mistake of its own, or wait until it runs out of CR. Swarms of Thunders maybe work, but swarms of Thunders work on everything else already.

[devurandom]

What would be the counterplay to a Hyperion with longer PPT? Even currently, the best you can do is hope it makes a mistake of its own, or wait until it runs out of CR. Swarms of Thunders maybe work, but swarms of Thunders work on everything else already.

The counterplay would be to wait for it to teleport and overwhelm the shields during the cooldown.

The Hyperion is already a light cruiser tier deployment cost. Making it a full cruiser tier ship in a frigate form factor would just make the problem worse.

IMO the problem with the current hyperion is that it is more powerful than a light cruiser already (ignoring PPT), but it is classified as a frigate so it has to have it's PPT nerfed into the ground to prevent it from being abused. I would just rework it as a an actual cruiser with weaker stats and a strong TP system (still nerfed from current state) to compete with ships that the player might actually pilot for most of the game (like doom/aurora/eagle etc.). That's not the only possible solution, but it's what I would do. I don't think super frigates are really compatible with the ideas behind CR/PPT (i.e. that gameplay where you slowly grind down/kite the enemy is undesirable). Either the ship is strong enough to kill things quickly (in which case it is OP with frigate speed/maneuverability), or the ship doesn't get enough value out of its frigate PPT. I think it's very difficult to find a balance there, and any balance will always be on the edge of that grindy/kitey playstyle that the CR/PPT mechanics are designed to prevent. The concept of a super frigate is just very in-conflict with the ideas behind the CR/PPT mechanics IMO.

There is nothing preventing a frigate being given a longer PPT, and I think that de-emphasizing the teleporter will actually make the Hyperion less kitey.

You don't see how a ship with better base dissipation and shields than an eagle, plus a tiny profile, high speed and a teleporter while costing the DP of a destroyer is unbalanced? People already complain the omen with .6 shields and worse flux stats and speed than the current hyperion is too strong.

The Hyperion has the same DP as a Falcon, which has two medium ballistics, hundreds of armor, thousands of hull points, and 30% range over the Hyperion. It also has pretty good maneuverability with jets active. Even with doubled flux stats, the Hyperion is not strictly superior. (Provided the teleport is nerfed)

[Alex]

This thread prompted me to have another look at the Hyperion and, well, that ended with a complete redesign of the ship. While it went in a different direction than proposed here, the thoughts and ideas in this discussion were very helpful, so: thank you all!

Patch notes for the new Hyperion:

Hyperion: redesigned almost entirely; new sprite
      Reclassed as "Heavy Frigate"
      Weapon slots: 2 medium energy and 1 medium universal
      All weapon slots are forward-facing hardpoints
      Flux stats increased to almost high-tech light cruiser levels
      Armor and hull values increased significantly
      Speed and maneuverability decreased to be on the low end of the frigate range
      Phase Teleporter:
         Requires zero-flux bonus to be active to be used
         Ship is vulnerable during wind-up
         Removed flux cost
         Added 3 second cooldown
         AI adjusted to be more convervative with its use
            (Old AI still available for use by mods)

The idea is that the teleporter becomes useful for two things: moving the ship around quickly (more player impact on battles!), and finding a good spot to get "stuck in" and unload its firepower (a decision where skill is involved in making a good one).

Importantly, it's not very useful for getting out of trouble, so if you get the "when and where to commit" decision wrong - especially combined with the ship's low-ish speed - you're likely to be heavily punished. Basically, thought about exactly how to engage over quick reflexes.

The new ship *is* quite tanky, with the 0.6 shield and good flux stats, but given that it's usually punching at something bigger, that doesn't count for quite as much as it might seem. In a way, it's almost like an extreme phase ship - move quickly, engage anywhere - but without the ability to get out of dodge easily. And not really feeling like a phaseship to play.

PPT-wise, the base is still 120, but you can increase that by something like 4 minutes when all the options for doing that - including some new skills - are combined.

Perhaps obviously, with its 3 hardpoints, it's also very weak to fighters - and even just being swarmed by faster frigates - so it doesn't seem like a Hyperion mono-fleet would be desirable, even if one is mainly sticking with frigates.

(Some further tweaks still possible, of course, but the above is feeling pretty good to fly!)

[Wyvern]

Huh. I'm... not sure how well that'll fit my playstyle; it sounds... odd.

Well, I guess the good thing here is that it's no longer in direct competition with the Tempest? Completely different fleet role; currently I use high-end frigates primarily as things to hunt down enemy frigates, which the new Hyperion sounds like it's going to be deliberately bad at with that listed vulnerability to being swarmed by faster frigates thing.

Guess I'll have to wait and see how it plays.

[SonnaBanana]

YAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

[Alex]

Huh. I'm... not sure how well that'll fit my playstyle; it sounds... odd.

It's definitely non-standard, but it feels like it's got an actual niche now. At least, if it works out as intended.

Well, I guess the good thing here is that it's no longer in direct competition with the Tempest? Completely different fleet role; currently I use high-end frigates primarily as things to hunt down enemy frigates, which the new Hyperion sounds like it's going to be deliberately bad at with that listed vulnerability to being swarmed by faster frigates thing.

I think it could still do that situationally - it can pounce on a technically-faster frigate and bring a lot of firepower to bear quickly. Just, it probably wouldn't be the thing you deploy solo to take on a bunch of them, you know? But chasing down a lone pesky frigate on the edge of the battlespace, that's another matter.

But yeah, very different than the Tempest, which has great anti-fighter and PD utility, where the new Hyperion is... let's call it a "precision hammer".

(... the Tempest could probably use a slight nerf, but that's another topic...)

[Histidine]

Interested to see how good the new ship system AI is at not getting itself into situations it can't get out of (especially with the ship not being able to easily run away on its own engines either).
There's a certain mod ship that's basically an Eagle with a long-cooldown phase teleporter, and it's developed a reputation for getting itself killed as a result.

[intrinsic_parity]

Having no PD and a forward facing shield just feels like a recipe for disaster. I have a burning hatred for salamanders as is.

[Alex]

Interested to see how good the new ship system AI is at not getting itself into situations it can't get out of (especially with the ship not being able to easily run away on its own engines either).
There's a certain mod ship that's basically an Eagle with a long-cooldown phase teleporter, and it's developed a reputation for getting itself killed as a result.

It *should* be better about it, and so far seems to be. The new teleporter AI ("PHASE_TELEPORTER_2") uses the same positioning logic as standard ship movement, so it should avoid putting itself into flanked situations. On the other hand, the player will definitely be able to get a lot more mileage out of it; I think there's a lot of room to use it aggressively but the AI, as usual, will err on the side of caution.

Still, in the tests I've run so far it does a nice job of e.g. pouncing on stray frigates quickly. Getting behind enemy ships is more difficult; the system's range doesn't allow doing it easily since turning on shields on the approach means you can't teleport.

Having no PD and a forward facing shield just feels like a recipe for disaster. I have a burning hatred for salamanders as is.

It mostly seems fine with this - the shield arc is wide enough that making them miss the engines doesn't require much work - and you can always raise it to full 360 coverage with extended shields. That said, some vulnerability here is an intended weakness.

[Cyan Leader]

Getting behind enemy ships is more difficult; the system's range doesn't allow doing it easily since turning on shields on the approach means you can't teleport.

Is that something you can get around with certain skills? Ie. those that change the condition of the zero-flux bonus.

[Chikanuk]

Sounds like exact type of ships what fighters love to swarm and destroy. Also 2 medium slots is good, but low speed and lack of range will made him easy target in late game, imho.
Also dunno how he will fight vs even 2 frigates, since he will be relatively slow and easy to flank.

[Megas]

Seems like new Hyperion is like a high-tech Brawler or Sunder (or Harbinger with shield instead of phase cloak).  Medium universal, with two medium energies?  I can see heavy needler in the universal.  Not sure what I would use for energies.  (Energy has terrible efficiency.)

I see Extended Shields mandatory on new Hyperion just for Salamander defense.

(... the Tempest could probably use a slight nerf, but that's another topic...)

It does count its bay toward the limit, does it?  If I load up on Tempests, it impacts the fighter bonuses my other carriers may get.  And with its design and OP total, getting that hullmod that removes the bay and adds cargo does not seem like a good idea on Tempest.  (It needs the drones for PD.)

[SCC]

New Hyperion is going to be basically a super Brawler. I am fine with those changes (mainly because I didn't like old Hyperion and phase ships' playstyle), but the new teleport AI is probably more exciting.

[HELMUT]

         Requires zero-flux bonus to be active to be used

Safety Override Hyperion let's goooooo!

I really like the change. With the teleporter change and new weapon layout, the playstyle is definitely going to be much more aggressive. I can already imagine some interesting builds : Triple heavy blaster, ion pulsers with a typhoon, phase lances with a HMG... And many more possibilities. Yep, looking good, i'm happy with that.

[Megas]

I have my doubts.  I wonder how it compares to the Falcon or the new Fury (and possibly Apogee since 3 more DP is not that much more than 15).  Hyperion still has low PPT, and PPT is high priority in big long slogs late in the game.  Hardened Subsystems alone only puts it on par with Wolf or Tempest without it, and frigates do not have enough PPT for big fights.

I also wonder if new Hyperion can outdo AM Blaster Afflictor.