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Author Topic: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols  (Read 1674 times)

Thaago

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Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« on: August 18, 2024, 04:37:38 PM »

I think the black market should only be accessible with the transponder off (or with the Free Port modifier, maybe). I also think that planets that have had significant player black market activity should spawn more patrols fast - starting just a few days after the smuggling event and lasting for months - scaled in power or number of fleets relative to the amount of money involved. Above a certain threshold they should also spawn bounty hunters looking for the player, that can be bribed to go away (possibly with SP + bonus XP) for an amount related to the money involved.

Reasons:

Smuggling as a money making source is a major problem in terms of gameplay: it is profitable and risk free, so naturally people do it. Once the player has identified a market and source, its just click and hold down shift to make a few millions running the route: frankly a boring experience.

Requiring the transponder off immediately makes grinding money more difficult, but more importantly ties smuggling more firmly into already existing gameplay mechanics that are often overlooked: sensors, stealth, misdirection, and the actual details of solar systems/their terrain! Sneaking into markets is very doable even without a stealth fleet in a number of heavily patrolled big worlds, but requires effort and skill, which should be rewarded.

Smaller markets that lack (and possibly those with the Free Port modifier) regular patrols are an opportunity for the player to get easy black market access. They can sell off their exploration loot without tariffs, get better weapon/ship access, and do smuggling there. It gives a difference in player gameplay experience between the big stable worlds and the small, wild west planets.

Spawning the commerce patrols after black market activity is a measure to stop player from abusing those easy markets in the exact ways they are right now, with regular smuggling runs. Once the player has done their dropoff of heavy armaments at the luddic path base planet for a single massive payday, they are going to need to dodge patrols to do it again. This forms a soft "cooldown" on smuggling, only one that can still be gotten around with player skill and a stealth focused fleet.

The bounty hunters are the last step that funnels the player towards combat: they are going to have to either give up parts of their profits to bribe the fleets, take along combat ships and fight, or get really good at dodging fleets. Any of those are much more engaging than current smuggling gameplay.

One critical thing though: bounty fleets should never spawn on the "first offense" at a planet, with an appropriate cooldown scaled to the amount of money involved, and it should be clearly signposted when the amount of smuggling is high enough to attract one. The reason for this is that selling off exploration loot at un-patrolled markets should not be penalized: it wasn't gotten through grinding, but through exploration. Neither should selling off the loot gotten from opportunistically hitting a trade convoy: again that wasn't gotten through grinding, but through combat and required at least some combat ships.
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Alex

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2024, 04:47:04 PM »

I've been thinking on and off about this - well, the general idea of making smuggling more of a risk/reward proposition.

The idea of requiring transponder-off for black market access... I do like it, and I think you make some good arguments for it, but it'd also be a pretty major change - I'd really want to see how it feels, but that's probably worth messing with. And, honestly, this seems simpler than the approaches I'd been thinking about :)


One critical thing though: bounty fleets should never spawn on the "first offense" at a planet, with an appropriate cooldown scaled to the amount of money involved, and it should be clearly signposted when the amount of smuggling is high enough to attract one. The reason for this is that selling off exploration loot at un-patrolled markets should not be penalized: it wasn't gotten through grinding, but through exploration. Neither should selling off the loot gotten from opportunistically hitting a trade convoy: again that wasn't gotten through grinding, but through combat and required at least some combat ships.

This is a minor point, but - you can still sell off exploration loot on the open market, and "maybe bounties come after you" seems like a reasonable risk/reward tradeoff for selling it without tariffs, no? It's true that you didn't get the loot through grinding, but I'm not sure that needs to be the driving factor, it's more about the risk/reward, I think.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2024, 06:20:39 PM »

A commerce patrol only needs 1 ship - fighting it would close the market up - and should be called a Cutter. Hegemony in particular should be Excise Cutter.

Also limiting the patrol to 1 frigate/destroyer would reduce its sensor range, making it less impossible to sneak by them.
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FooF

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2024, 07:13:08 PM »

I get what the OP is saying but as one who pretty much uses the black market as intended (rarely, and in small doses), all this does is force me into a stealth quest every time I want to shop around the major markets. 99% of the time, I use the black markets to buy, not sell, so the proposed change would be a great inconvenience to me. I'm not against it, per se, but I'm also not abusing constant Pather shortages to make millions from trade early on. The problem I would have is that it might take me 2-3 minutes to coordinate a sneaky way in only to find the black market has nothing I want.

The thought occurred to me leave black market access as-is but limit how much can be sold on the black market as some function of colony size and stability. That is to say, there is a finite amount of funds available to buy up your stuff. A backwater frontier world shouldn't be able to pay out millions of credits for your Domain-era colony items or buy up strategic levels of commodities. If you want to sell large quantities or rare items, you'll have to go major population centers because they're the only ones with the capital to actually buy it.

Military markets could function similarly, albeit with much more purchasing power and their own limitations as to what they will or won't buy. Of course, you have to rep to access them and while off-topic, I've always thought the military market tariff should be a function of reputation (i.e. higher rep lowers the tariff). It does create "preferred market" status (i.e. optimal play might be to go to the same military market each time) but that's a perk for trade, too.
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AdamLegend

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2024, 07:41:53 PM »

I pretty much sell on the black market all the time, with little consequence. Don't really mind if I get stopped for inspections or lose some relations. I think some kind of patrol mechanic like this would make a lot of sense, to add some more risk to it.
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Bungee_man

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2024, 07:59:11 PM »

Something to note about the black market is that it's most useful at free ports, anyways. Pirate/Pather planets sell cheap illegal goods where they produce them, and have high deficits where they don't. I'm not regularly sneaking into Chicomoztoc to sell or buy on the black market, simply because I have no real reason to do so over a planet that's okay with my coming in to do these things.

I think the best way to balance this is for free ports to collect a share of the money on the black market, or even for them to have no black market at all (since it's been legitimized). This would be in keeping with the player making money from illegal goods sold by free ports, and would create a more even risk-reward calculus for black market trade - markets with anti-smuggling operations have more lucrative black markets, since there's something in place keeping the market from becoming efficient, and creating a natural gap between the price you can buy something for elsewhere and the price you can sell it for there.

Supplementing this (and making supplying pirates less of a low-risk high-reward meta strategy), poorer markets could have caps on how much they're willing to pay for goods. The Luddic Path may have trouble importing heavy armaments at scale, but they're also poor insurgents who can't pay a lot for things in general. There might be a stable income in occasionally selling them weapons, if you can buy them cheap enough, but no amount of spaceport-raiding would be able to drive up Epiphany's heavy armaments price to 1200 credits.
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Grievous69

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2024, 11:49:15 PM »

I get what the OP is saying but as one who pretty much uses the black market as intended (rarely, and in small doses), all this does is force me into a stealth quest every time I want to shop around the major markets. 99% of the time, I use the black markets to buy, not sell, so the proposed change would be a great inconvenience to me. I'm not against it, per se, but I'm also not abusing constant Pather shortages to make millions from trade early on. The problem I would have is that it might take me 2-3 minutes to coordinate a sneaky way in only to find the black market has nothing I want.

The thought occurred to me leave black market access as-is but limit how much can be sold on the black market as some function of colony size and stability. That is to say, there is a finite amount of funds available to buy up your stuff. A backwater frontier world shouldn't be able to pay out millions of credits for your Domain-era colony items or buy up strategic levels of commodities. If you want to sell large quantities or rare items, you'll have to go major population centers because they're the only ones with the capital to actually buy it.

Military markets could function similarly, albeit with much more purchasing power and their own limitations as to what they will or won't buy. Of course, you have to rep to access them and while off-topic, I've always thought the military market tariff should be a function of reputation (i.e. higher rep lowers the tariff). It does create "preferred market" status (i.e. optimal play might be to go to the same military market each time) but that's a perk for trade, too.
Same here, sometimes I find a weapon/hullmod that I really need and I buy that since it's on the way. I generally sell everything through the open market since I get my money from bounty hunting and exploration missions.

The proposed change would make selling stuff through black market harder and with more risk, but for people that use it here and there to buy a single Railgun, it would be ultra annoying for no reason.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2024, 12:23:06 AM »

People buy on the black market with Transponder on?

Anyway, the fix to black markets is to limit supply and demand. If a planet sells 500 Supplies on open market, it shouldn't be selling 400 on the black market, that is comical levels of corruption. It should be something like 10-20% of open market value tops, or better yet it should be tied to Stability(the higher Stability the lower the black market ratio)
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Grievous69

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2024, 12:26:02 AM »

People buy on the black market with Transponder on?
If you're buying a couple of weapons, it makes no difference. Sure I'll pay a bit extra but that's peanuts in the end.
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Siffrin

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2024, 12:30:51 AM »

People buy on the black market with Transponder on?
Transverse jump onto the Nachiketa planet, buy out their surplus fuel on the black market with transponder on, leave because the discounted price is low enough to not agro patrols.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2024, 04:37:25 AM by Siffrin »
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AcaMetis

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2024, 02:56:51 AM »

Above a certain threshold they should also spawn bounty hunters looking for the player, that can be bribed to go away (possibly with SP + bonus XP) for an amount related to the money involved.
What's the point of doing a stealth mission every time you use the black market if the factions end up finding out about your identity and sending fleets after you anyway? At that point just fly in, do your illegal business and spend the SP on making customs look the other way.
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Amoebka

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2024, 05:25:46 AM »

The problem I would have is that it might take me 2-3 minutes to coordinate a sneaky way in only to find the black market has nothing I want.
I think is the main issue, really. Spending 5 minutes holding S to dock at Kazeron only to find they don't sell the cruiser I want isn't fun.

Personally, I just think stealth mechanics in this game are completely unenjoable, sorry. Anything that makes them mandatory is a bad thing for me.
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Megas

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2024, 06:28:01 AM »

I always stealth for black market trade.  I stealth in systems without any patrols like Mayasura, Magec, or Kumari Kandam or out in the fringe where pirate or pather markets are.  There is plenty of low-hanging fruit with minimal or non-existent defenses that it is fairly trivial to trade at a black market without transponder.  Not all black markets, of course.  I do not want to try to stealth my way to a major faction's homeworld with a general-purpose fleet, but when any given black market is good enough to buy or sell junk, I take the path of least resistance and avoid the big worlds and go to the backwater worlds instead.  Sometimes, when pirates make a mess of things and deplete patrols of said big worlds, or I take my pure phase blueprint raider fleet out for a blueprint or colony item heist, I will shop at the bigger worlds.

The one time I really build for stealth is raiding heavily defended worlds for blueprints.  I prefer to raid without fighting to minimize rep loss (from patrols or fighting) and so I can use Ziggurat in the fleet (if I fight, it is auto-hostile, so don't fight!)  Bring thousands of marines to overwhelm ground defenses at full strength for up to size 7 worlds.

A specialist stealth fleet can have profile so low that they can squeeze between the gaps of two or three patrol fleets orbiting the world.  No Sensor skill required, though it helps.  (I did not use Sensors, took Navigation instead for more max burn.)  Feels great.  Lets me trade at the black market if I want, then raid them for their blueprints!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2024, 06:35:55 AM by Megas »
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Vind

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2024, 06:35:42 AM »

Black Market is one of the main sources for weaponry. Halving the chances of finding new weapons will make collecting needed weapons is even more boring. Open market is useless as a weapon provider. This limits the player to faction comission or independent weapon markets only.
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Megas

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Re: Smuggling: Transponder and Patrols
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2024, 06:39:10 AM »

Black Market is one of the main sources for weaponry. Halving the chances of finding new weapons will make collecting needed weapons is even more boring. Open market is useless as a weapon provider. This limits the player to faction comission or independent weapon markets only.
Yes!  Aside from dumping vendor trash, I use black markets in early-game mostly to get the relatively common weapons like pulse lasers and (earlier in the game) smaller pristine ships.  Open Market weapon selection is atrocious, mostly budget ballistics and the occasional mining weapon and dumb-fire rockets.  No proper energy weapons.

It is one reason why I am motivated to build a colony and Heavy Industry early, so I can build my own stuff.
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