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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24)

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Author Topic: [0.97a] More Military Missions (v0.4.2)  (Read 40700 times)

SpaceDrake

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.3)
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2023, 12:04:44 PM »

So, something that you're getting a lot of negative feedback on elsewhere comes from the fact that a mod like this should really operate on a whitelist, rather than a blacklist, and that the list should be a separate file in config for ease of use by other modders to keep track of the data.

The real problem here is that many mods have "factions" that are more mechanical expressions than actual proper factions. Trying to account for every single one of these would be a nightmare and you'd have to try and keep up with it forever as new mods and ideas come out. Instead, it makes a lot more sense to make what factions get allowed a "whitelist", a list where the mission (and missions to come?) pull only from the factions listed, which for vanilla should probably be limited to hegemony, luddic_church, persean, luddic_path, tritachyon, sindrian_diktat (with no lions_guard, they stay home!), pirates, mercenary, and remnants if you want to be spicy. Doing it this way will mean that users will have to add mod factions they want to see appear in the mission, but it will also prevent strangeness like HMI superbosses appearing in the fleets and making people annoyed.

Anyway, this is still a neat mod concept and not something many people try to do! Keep at it, IMO, it just needs a little refinement in its approach. :D
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SoSD

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.4)
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2023, 11:05:37 PM »

SpaceDrake's suggestion of a whitelist seems like a good idea - I started a new game tonight, and it was very easy to assemble a fleet of amazing ships (including a Nirvana) just from doing a bunch of station defence missions.

Beyond the whitelist, I think it might be worth considering reducing the salvage from the defence missions (perhaps justified by the other defenders claiming some of the salvage?) to make it a bit harder to mooch off of the stations and gather ships really easily early game.

If that's not possible, perhaps making the defence missions a bit less frequent - or adding a requirement for the player to have at least a fleet of a certain size before station commanders will try to hire them might help with this.

Great idea for the mod, though! Defensive battles like this really seem like something that should be part of the base game.
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TheHZDev

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.4)
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2023, 06:25:54 AM »

This mod is so good!
Could you allow me to translate it into Chinese and upload to the Chinese Starsector Forum(https://fossic.org)?
Thank you very much.
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LngA7Gw

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.3)
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2023, 12:24:19 PM »

I do think that the credit reward should be halved or lowered even further though.

Thank you for your feedback. You can tweak the rewards by modifying MoreMilitaryMissions\data\config\modSettings.json yourself, particularly the DmCreditRewardPerFpparameter.  I will not make it the default because the most common feedback I'm getting is you want me to fight that fleet for only this much credit?  Can't please everyone I suppose.

So, something that you're getting a lot of negative feedback on elsewhere comes from the fact that a mod like this should really operate on a whitelist, rather than a blacklist, and that the list should be a separate file in config for ease of use by other modders to keep track of the data.

I disagree; the most important user for this mod is myself, and the biggest reason I made this mod is to introduce some variety to the default Starsector experience. Getting to fight a variety of fleet types is an important reason why I made this mod.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2023, 12:31:35 PM by LngA7Gw »
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LngA7Gw

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.3)
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2023, 12:29:43 PM »

This mod is so good!
Could you allow me to translate it into Chinese and upload to the Chinese Starsector Forum(https://fossic.org)?
Thank you very much.

Go ahead.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2023, 12:32:05 PM by LngA7Gw »
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.4)
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2023, 04:39:20 PM »

Fix your *** mod using dummy factions. It breaks other mods, including mine.
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Xzaven

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.3)
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2023, 05:45:59 PM »

I do think that the credit reward should be halved or lowered even further though.

Thank you for your feedback. You can tweak the rewards by modifying MoreMilitaryMissions\data\config\modSettings.json yourself, particularly the DmCreditRewardPerFpparameter.  I will not make it the default because the most common feedback I'm getting is you want me to fight that fleet for only this much credit?  Can't please everyone I suppose.

Oh I get that. When I got one of the Redacted fleets to fight, the reward did seem rather small for the challenge. But for common fleets it feels high, in comparison to bounty fleets at least.

Will just change the value myself then. I admit I didn't even go an look if there was a config file, my bad.

So, something that you're getting a lot of negative feedback on elsewhere comes from the fact that a mod like this should really operate on a whitelist, rather than a blacklist, and that the list should be a separate file in config for ease of use by other modders to keep track of the data.

I disagree; the most important user for this mod is myself, and the biggest reason I made this mod is to introduce some variety to the default Starsector experience. Getting to fight a variety of fleet types is an important reason why I made this mod.

The choice to use a whitelist instead of a blacklist shouldn't have any influence on the fleet types you get as long as the proper factions are allowed? If a whitelist would ease interaction with other mods and you can modify it, I would agree that this sounds like a good idea.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2023, 05:51:16 PM by Xzaven »
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Alex

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.4)
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2023, 06:25:59 PM »

Fix your *** mod using dummy factions. It breaks other mods, including mine.

This is completely inappropriate behavior, and this is an official warning. Please re-familiarize yourself with the forum rules.
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LngA7Gw

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.3)
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2023, 06:50:44 PM »

The choice to use a whitelist instead of a blacklist shouldn't have any influence on the fleet types you get as long as the proper factions are allowed? If a whitelist would ease interaction with other mods and you can modify it, I would agree that this sounds like a good idea.

Well the overwhelming vast majority of people won't bother tinkering with the mod settings, so the default experience is what you get.  Then it becomes an issue of tradeoffs; is it more important to allow you to fight any faction there is in the game, or is it more important to preserve immersion of faction mods with hidden factions/ships?

I chose the former because that's one of the reason why I made the mod, but I can understand the latter point of view.  So I've added a warning to the mod description that it may reveal hidden faction/ships and break immersion.  If the player still chose to use this mod then they have made their choice.

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Histidine

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.4)
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2023, 06:55:51 PM »

Well there's already a warning on the OP about the gameplay effects which I suppose is good enough, at least for now. So I'm just leaving this here for reference.

How I'd do it
Use faction.isShowInIntelTab() as the default setting; any faction that appears in intel is likely 'public' and 'real' within the Sector and safe to use, and any that isn't is likely not. Let mods specify an override in either direction if the default isn't right in their specific case; by default this would enable derelicts, Remnants and others.

If you personally want to play with all factions, add an opt-in setting for that, make it dev-only if you want.
[close]
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Xzaven

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.4)
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2023, 09:08:02 PM »

Seeing the previous post, if there would be a toggle in the mod to use the public list, or all factions, that would work too I suppose?

And just leave the standard setting on the public factions.

And don't get me wrong, I still enjoy this mod, just think that it would improve on it :)
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LngA7Gw

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.4)
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2023, 09:13:17 PM »

Seeing the previous post, if there would be a toggle in the mod to use the public list, or all factions, that would work too I suppose?

I suppose that's reasonable
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.4)
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2023, 12:12:36 AM »

Well there's already a warning on the OP about the gameplay effects which I suppose is good enough, at least for now. So I'm just leaving this here for reference.

How I'd do it
Use faction.isShowInIntelTab() as the default setting; any faction that appears in intel is likely 'public' and 'real' within the Sector and safe to use, and any that isn't is likely not. Let mods specify an override in either direction if the default isn't right in their specific case; by default this would enable derelicts, Remnants and others.

If you personally want to play with all factions, add an opt-in setting for that, make it dev-only if you want.
[close]

As an extra failsafe it should also make sure that the faction has a non-hidden market existing in the sector. Makes both gameplay sense in case a faction is wiped out, and also gets lots of the dummy factions out of the way. Though i did try using modded factions without a whitelist before, and generaly its just a better idea not to, lots of unexpected outcomes from using modded factions in unintended ways.

Getting all factions without any filtering though is just a bad idea all around. Not doing anything like this isnt really about making the most content available, it just makes it seem like a bad and lazy mod.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 12:16:24 AM by Lukas04 »
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.4)
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2023, 02:08:40 AM »

This is completely inappropriate behavior, and this is an official warning. Please re-familiarize yourself with the forum rules.

My apologies to both you and LngA7Gw, my tone was indeed inappropriate.

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Great Wound

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Re: [0.96a] More Military Missions (v0.0.3)
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2023, 06:56:17 PM »

Well the overwhelming vast majority of people won't bother tinkering with the mod settings, so the default experience is what you get.  Then it becomes an issue of tradeoffs; is it more important to allow you to fight any faction there is in the game, or is it more important to preserve immersion of faction mods with hidden factions/ships?

I chose the former because that's one of the reason why I made the mod, but I can understand the latter point of view.  So I've added a warning to the mod description that it may reveal hidden faction/ships and break immersion.  If the player still chose to use this mod then they have made their choice.

This makes the most sense to me. Being able to fight any ship from any faction has far greater appeal than "preserving immersion". Besides, many factions/boss-ships break immersion by their own existence so that argument falls short to me. As for whitelist vs. blacklist, in this case I would go for the blacklist, since the vast majority of ships will be compatible with the mod. But by all means offer the opportunity for modders to blacklist their ships if they feel it essential that their ships retain snowflake-status.

The most important thing you touched on is to keep making the mod for yourself, you're the number one user. If you start to obsess over pleasing others you'll fall in to that ego-hole of trying to please everyone else and ultimately sap your own enjoyment.

What ever you decide, you've already done good. Keep it up.
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