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Author Topic: Fixing S-Mods  (Read 2417 times)

Great Wound

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Fixing S-Mods
« on: September 24, 2022, 07:03:55 PM »

The current way of thinking is to build in the most expensive hullmods (i.e. heavy armor) as a way to cheese the game for 'free' OP.

I believe this is the wrong way of thinking and against Alex's intent (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). I believe a better way of doing this is to assign a pool of ordinance points exclusively for built-in hullmods. It would encourage a greater variety of built-in hullmods without punishing those who don't min-max. An example:

  • Ships get an additional 10/20/30/50 Story Ordinance Points (SOPS) depending on size.
  • So a Dominator would get 200OP + 30SOPS
  • Equipping Heavy Armour (20OP) would leave it with 180OP + 30SOPS
  • Building in Heavy Armour would leave it with 200OP + 10SOPS

The total ordinance available is still the same:

Quote
Well I'm still going to cheese it by building in two of the most expensive hullmods

Sorry but no! In order to prevent abuse any excess ordinance is removed from the regular OP pool.

  • Currently our Dominator has 200OP + 10SOPS remaining
  • If we were to build in Hardened Shields (15OP) the excess is removed from the regular pool
  • Leaving our Dominator with 195OP + 0 SOPS remaining

Quote
What about "Best of the Best"?

The simple solution is to have it increase the amount of SOPS, to say 15/30/45/70

  • Our trusty Dominator just gained 15SOPS
  • So now it has 200OP + 10SOPS remaining

Doing things this way makes it harder to abuse and re-opens the door to building in over-costly hullmods i.e. Safety Overrides/Integrator and Anchor. It also encourages variety, rather than just building in the most expensive players are encouraged to build in the hullmods they are most likely to use because what you gain in SOPS you lose in flexibility.

Grievous69

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2022, 11:34:05 PM »

So if you're able to build in multiple hullmods into that pool, and it just retracts from the normal OP amount, then we're just going back to the Loadout Design skill from the past, but for individual ships. Which I'm fine with tbh, but it's kind of hilarious how people now gravitate towards the simpler option that actually did the job (yeah you could still call it boring).

Not to mention it'll stop silly rules like you can't build in SO, can't build in Phase Anchor, and all future strong mods. Then rebalance changes specifically made to discourage heavy usage of s-modding. If anything the current system is more boring to me. Literally the only choice you make is "will I use this ship in late game?".
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Megas

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2022, 05:46:08 AM »

If using story points does what the OP wants, why not simply add to max OP to the ship?  For example, each story point adds 5/10/15/25 max OP to the ship?

I can see things done the current way because it looks easier to strip an s-mod than to check op totals then strip when player removes BotB after respec.
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FooF

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2022, 07:58:20 AM »

Literally the only choice you make is "will I use this ship in late game?".

Yeah, this is about where I land. I don’t want to waste SP on ships that ultimately won’t make it in my final fleet. Even with SP being pretty easy to come by early, I know I don’t want to waste them.

I still think there should be a way to remove/“bank” S-mods from one ship and transfer them to another ship. That way you don’t feel like you’re wasting them on early game ships. The SP itself is still locked into the S mod system but it’s not completely tied to a particular ship.
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prav

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2022, 08:09:09 AM »

Literally the only choice you make is "will I use this ship in late game?".

It's pretty easy to get the story point refunded as bonus experience, but at the same time I can't remember when I last ran out of green meter, which makes the value of the refund very dubious.
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Megas

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2022, 08:16:46 AM »

It's pretty easy to get the story point refunded as bonus experience, but at the same time I can't remember when I last ran out of green meter, which makes the value of the refund very dubious.
This is at the point when player needs to grind multi-Ordos for +500% xp to gain experience fast enough.  If limited to less, then paying off the debt takes too long.
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prav

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2022, 08:40:54 AM »

Really the more bonus experience you have stacked up the faster it should be consumed.

I'm not sure how I feel about the fixed cost for S-modded hullmods - I like that it encourages a different hullmod valuation than what you arrive at when paying with regular OP, but I don't like how the answer usually comes out to EMR + HA. This could probably be fixed by just adding a few more high impact, high cost combat hullmods - Hardened Shields used to be one of these, but it's pretty unimpressive post-nerf.

Or you could nerf EMR and HA, since they're very competitive even at full OP cost...
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Grievous69

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2022, 08:52:03 AM »

Or you could nerf EMR and HA, since they're very competitive even at full OP cost...
God no, both hullmods were buffed because they weren't used much before, and now we expect them to be weaker again purely because of s-mods. Complete buffoonery.

Might as well have all hullmods cost exactly the same which makes the game more boring, and has exactly the same effect as a simple OP boost.

Hardened shields should be a commitment, I'd ideally want to revert the change along with the fix to s-mods.
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prav

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2022, 08:58:39 AM »

That was rather the point. Don't be rude.
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Grievous69

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2022, 09:07:50 AM »

What point, you contradicted yourself in the second and third paragraph. I was just picturing the unnecessary loops we would do with balance changes.

Calling a proposition "buffoonery" shouldn't be seen as rude by anyone using the internet. Please don't do the toxic bait thingy (there really should exist a word for that).
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prav

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2022, 09:20:46 AM »

What point, you contradicted yourself in the second and third paragraph. I was just picturing the unnecessary loops we would do with balance changes.

Calling a proposition "buffoonery" shouldn't be seen as rude by anyone using the internet. Please don't do the toxic bait thingy (there really should exist a word for that).

I'd happily respond in kind, but it's Alex's forum and he wants it civil. I'll be more explicit in the future so those who can't keep up, can.
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smithney

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2022, 10:13:38 AM »

@Great Wound
This sounds like a good way to make S-mods more reasonable if they are to remain a part of the Story Point system. That said, I am of the opinion that these "investment"' ways of using SP really does demotivate the player from using them in incidental situations. S-mods and colony improvements should be decoupled from the SP system, otherwise some players are going to keep hoarding them.

Speaking of hoarding SP, another mechanic that encourages it is the Historian. I wish the cost of differently prized "treasures" was more streamlined. Currently I'm incentivized to hoard SP in case a colony item I'm missing gets dropped by the Historian. Perhaps the hint to a colony item should cost a closer amount of SP to that to a blueprint, but the gameplay path to the former should be more exhausting that that to the latter.
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Megas

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2022, 10:34:14 AM »

Another feature I would hoard story points for are officers, since unlike ships, they do not refund skill points when fired.  Officers need to be tailored to the ship they will pilot (if player wants to fight Ordos), but if the player changes the fleet, he probably wants to fire them all and replace them to pilot new ships.

It would not be so bad if officers can respec like the commander, but as long as skills are locked with the officer, firing them when the player changes the fleet makes sense, provided the player has the time to level them all up.

I usually do not make skills elite for officers because it feels bad when I want to fire them when they become obsolete after a fleet change and not get any refund.

I still think there should be a way to remove/“bank” S-mods from one ship and transfer them to another ship. That way you don’t feel like you’re wasting them on early game ships. The SP itself is still locked into the S mod system but it’s not completely tied to a particular ship.
This would be nice for Ziggurat, since player cannot build or find another.  Spending several story points to swap s-mods through BotB toggling is clunky and more wasteful than necessary.  There should be an easier way to remove s-mods on exotic ships that are difficult or impossible to replace.

Expanded Missile Racks is no good on Ziggurat without missiles, and I do not want to use missiles on Z when limited to human weapons.  Once I get AMSRMs and Resonators from Omegas, then I want swap ITU s-mod for Expanded Missile Racks s-mod for more Omega missile capacity.

Speaking of hoarding SP, another mechanic that encourages it is the Historian. I wish the cost of differently prized "treasures" was more streamlined. Currently I'm incentivized to hoard SP in case a colony item I'm missing gets dropped by the Historian. Perhaps the hint to a colony item should cost a closer amount of SP to that to a blueprint, but the gameplay path to the former should be more exhausting that that to the latter.
Blueprints always cost 1, no refund.  Player will always need to spend one for the Legion XIV (no other way to get that blueprint).  The rest are for convenience.  Raiding for all of the rest of the blueprints is tedious, even after the player finds all of the basic blueprint packs.

Colony items is the insanity part, starting at 4 and doubling with each successive item, like colony improvements.  This is not a problem for player who sticks with five or six planets and does not use more than one item per colony, but it can be annoying for the alpha abuser who has no problem playing whack-a-mole with cells and wants more and more items for his ever-expanding empire.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2022, 10:54:17 AM by Megas »
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2022, 03:21:06 AM »

An officer respec without SP could be like this:
Officers continue to level after lvl 5 but don't get new skills, every half level a random learned skill could be switched with another random skill.
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Schwartz

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Re: Fixing S-Mods
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2022, 02:48:34 PM »

Nah, S-Mods are fine. Heavy Armor & Extra Missiles aren't always the ideal choice. For a lot of high-tech ships they're trap choices, and you want S-Mods that actually contribute to the first line of defense - being shields, or mobility, or weapon range. Those two OP-expensive mods are arguably overpriced for what they are. If someone wanted to put Augmented Engines on all his ships for that reason and have a hit-and-run pirate fleet, why not?

I have built a fair few maxed-out ships in the current version of the game, and seldom are the highest OP hullmods the ideal choice. It feels good when these two things overlap and you can get away with it, but power in combat is actually the main concern.

For me it's not strictly just a question of late-game, but just if a ship is powerful enough to be universally usable. I often put 3 S-Mods on top-tier frigates even though they're technically not worth it, or on my Colossus / Phaeton before I reach the endgame with capital logistics ships. Sure, it's a waste by that point, but there's no need to be stingy if you do well enough that you seldom lose ships. And S-Modded ships are real easy to recover, so..
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 02:57:45 PM by Schwartz »
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