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[SafariJohn]

Hyperspace has been a bit rough the entire time it's been in Starsector. I think it's going to take a major revisement to smooth it out. Thankfully with this suggestion most of the work is simply shuffling around existing parts.

First, let's clear all this old hyperspace terrain off the map; now we just have our lovely swirly background. We're going to call those swirly depths "Deep Hyperspace". Oh yeah, and we have a bunch of jump points too.

Pick up all that flat cloud-ish terrain we swept off the map a moment ago, because we're going to put it under those jump points and all around them. Scatter some clusters of the stuff everywhere else while you're at it. We're gonna call it "Shallow Space". Real original, I know. Anyways, what this terrain does is reduce a fleet's sensor profile by half. It'll also protect fleets from some nasty deep hyperspace stuff described later.

We're also going to have two variants of this terrain. Shallow Space (Stable) and Shallow Space (Storm).

Storm terrain temporarily replaces normal shallow space. In addition to reducing sensor profiles, it reduces a fleet's sensor radius by half, reduces the speed of large fleets by up to half, and drains CR at a reasonable rate.

Stable terrain is formed around star systems by gravity. Unlike the rest of shallow space, it can't become stormy. Otherwise it's the same.

Alright, now we're going to bring back something that never made it in: wavefronts. Wavefronts occasionally fly across hyperspace, sweeping up small fleets in their path. Mid-sized fleets can power their way through pretty quickly and large fleets can basically ignore them. In addition to pushing fleets around, wavefronts also mildly drain CR. What makes all this bearable is that they only affect fleets in deep hyperspace.

Another hazard of deep hyperspace is the "Vortex". It's very similar to a black hole, except much less brutal on the CR drain and much better at sucking in small fleets. The special part about a vortex is the center - it's a wormhole to another spot in hyperspace. The vortex dissipates a few moments after it catches a fleet or after about a minute.

While it would be "cute" for wormholes to be a nonstandard game over by teleporting the player VERY far away, I recommend against any such feature in the strongest possible terms. Though let the in-game rumors fly!


You may have noticed we have yet to see any mention of fuel. That's because burning fuel to travel gets the boot under this revision. Fuel is only used to jump into hyperspace and for certain abilities. To keep it important, though, jumping takes a lot more fuel - like 10 times as much (as a baseline).

There is still a need for a limit on exploration time, to be provided by food. Food has been waffled about before, but this time we will nail it down. 15 crew consumes 1 unit of food per month. There, done. Oh, and finding more in the fringes of the Sector is rare. That pesky little 5 year expiration date at work.

Seriously though, food is a much better limiter than fuel, because you still have plenty of time to save yourself if you carelessly run out of it. Run out of fuel and, at best, you'll be doing a lot of waiting in the near future.

[Alex]

(Interesting side note: terrain around stars and clear "deep" hyperspace was how it was originally designed. Nailing down the visuals for that was exceedingly difficult, though, and flipping that around made it much more manageable. Not to say it couldn't be done, though.)

I think it might help to explicitly state what problems this is trying to solve and what the design goals of the new approach are, i.e. how it solves those problems. Otherwise, it's a bit tough to evaluate, and it would also help get any discussion on the same page.

[SafariJohn]

I admit it! My primary goal is to rid the game of the tyranny of fuel. Fuel is cool, it's just too shackling at present. It's very expensive, very essential, and can be very easy to lose track of.

I want travel that engages experienced players without being deadly to new players. I think wavefronts and vortexes will achieve this. At the moment it is trivial for an experienced player to begin a game, cruise out to the fringes with a frigate or two, and make loads of moolah. Shallow space and particularly storms create a different environment where small fleets can slink around and evade big fleets.

I think the terrains I've proposed also create a clear sense of progression to travel. In the beginning hyperspace throws your tiny fleet around like a toy. By endgame you can plow straight through hyperspace's hazards, or even take advantage of them to outfox AI fleets.

Finally, as I mentioned, there still needs to be a soft limit on how much exploration can be done in one go, which I believe food, with some help from fuel, will accomplish. I forgot to say in the OP that salvaging fuel should be much rarer. It tends to explode and all that. You more or less only have as much fuel as you bring with you, which limits how many systems you can check out.


In summary, I think the problem is that hyperspace travel doesn't engage experienced players and can be very harsh to new players. I'd even say the biggest risk experienced players face while traveling is letting their attention drift - next thing you know you're sitting on empty. Or in the middle of a patch of storms.

[Megas]

I liked it better when storms merely ate supplies instead of killing Sustained Burn on top of that (and activating Emergency Burn does not help because it turns off Sustained Burn first before EB kicks in a few seconds later, which takes too much time).  Now, if I get caught too badly or deeply by storms, I reload the game and try again.  Storms are too punishing as they are.

[xenoargh]

Storms are both punishing and unexciting.  "Oops, the RNG just caused a storm right in front of me, way too late to avoid, guess I need to reload because I won't have enough Supplies to return home" is not terribly Fun.

I think I'll try out a new concept for Thar Be Dragons that has avoidable events, rather than storms, at some point.  Figuring out how to make Travel actually interesting is one of the big challenges, to be sure.

[Thaago]

Storms sometimes just stop the player cold, too. I want to explore in that direction? Too bad, there is a solid wall of storms across the whole screen. And that wall is going to persist for in game weeks, so the choice of 'do I wait and maybe get hit by a pirate band?' isn't a choice at all, because it will take too long.

I do think its very rare to get caught by storms though - you can see the clouds lighten for quite a bit of time before the storm itself breaks up.

I really like exploring, and could 100% do without storms or deep hyperspace as they currently are, which is a pity, because I love how storms look.

Now, if there were actual lanes of clear space between stars, with convoys and pirate ambushes/luddic raiders, maybe remnants, and the deep hyperspace and storms outside of those lanes for those who wanted to try and brave them? That would be good. The lanes concentrate gameplay and ship danger, but the player still has the option of trying for the rough path if they think that is better, or if it is a shortcut (lanes don't have to be the shortest path, after all). But the AI has to respect the paths and not just blindly fly about as they do now.

[xenoargh]

That's a solid thought. 

Maybe I'll write a clear-a-path mod that connects all Systems in a Constellation and connects the Constellations to the nearest others.  Shouldn't be too hard to develop one.  Thar Be Dragons already clears Hyperspace around Systems where the proc-gen has put storms right on top of destinations.

[Megas]

I do think its very rare to get caught by storms though - you can see the clouds lighten for quite a bit of time before the storm itself breaks up.

The light up warning is subtle enough that it is not always easy to spot if player knows what to look for.  Less experienced player may not spot them.  Also, collision detection is terrible.  Fleet can be simply near it but still be caught and take huge penalties.  When Sustained Burn was not affected much, I can get clipped by storms and not care much.  I lost a little extra supplies, big deal.  Today, if I can get caught for too long by a storm, I simply reload the game and replay the last few minutes because the penalties are too harsh.

[Thaago]

That's a solid thought. 

Maybe I'll write a clear-a-path mod that connects all Systems in a Constellation and connects the Constellations to the nearest others.  Shouldn't be too hard to develop one.  Thar Be Dragons already clears Hyperspace around Systems where the proc-gen has put storms right on top of destinations.

Let us know how it feels for flying about! I think the difficult thing will be to get the AI to respect/use them, because that concentrates the more fun content of interacting with fleets.

[xenoargh]

In theory, the AI should use them; it has some crude steering stuff that dissuades it from diving into clouds.

[Drokkath]

I think I'm probably the only one here who would love the idea to turn the phase teleporter up to an eleven and then twist the dial of it all around up to eleven again and then go through some unknown madness and appear instantly light years away in another location where the destination was artificially set from the ship initially without much use of hyperspace, if at all.

Any living human crew onboard would suffer severe blows to their mental health and sanity, basically Event Horizion in SS at the very worst. A long-range glorified phase teleporter with high chances of killing off most of one's crew unless the ship that has that device is automated/operated by an AI. Whole fleet would need to be automated to avoid crew loss on other ships in one's fleet. Robot/drone crew would come really useful to avoid that. In general I'd rather have robot/drone crew over human crew any day. Of course since the ship with that device could/would suffer some combat readiness along with hull and armor loss too since it can teleport from one star system into another and while teleporting it's gonna go through an unknown and uncharted hell of a place.

Then again I am aware that hyperspace is part of the game and I'd be missing out on blasting hostile fleets to smithereens in hyperspace. I went kinda insane long ago now, so some far-fetched craziness has become part of me along with eldritch inner workings of lovecraftian origins.

[Alex]

I admit it! My primary goal is to rid the game of the tyranny of fuel. Fuel is cool, it's just too shackling at present.

Ah, gotcha I think it's a difference of preference, then - I'd like fuel, and running out of it, to be something you're almost always concerned about. Feel-wise, I think that's good for making exploration feel more dangerous. The "tyranny" is a feature, if you will. Not to say it couldn't be tuned in one direction or another, of course; it's entirely possible that it's on the harsh side right now.

Re: Food - why make it a second version of supplies?

[Drokkath]

Re: Food - why make it a second version of supplies?

It would make sense for the human crew to have that need but I have thought of it myself however too and the way it currently is in the game (the concept of supplies) I'm guessing the supplies contain food already but in a form of astronaut food in packages, which seems an ideal way to carry and preserve food for the crew even in SS. That makes the actual food item in the game more of a commodity for civilizations/stations/colonies/outposts in general for the masses.

Just my two cents.

[Megas]

I do not mind crew living on rations, uniforms, motor oil, flux capacitors, and heavy metal.  Dealing with supplies and fuel drain is enough.  The Neutrino ability sucking up Volatiles is a reason why I do not want it (although wasting a skill point on it is the primary reason not to take it, the volatiles requirement is just more pain on top).

It would be nice if tankers were not required for a simple round-trip between the edge of core worlds and a bounty system.  By endgame, every big fleet off to kill high bounties or Remnants needs a Prometheus (thanks to 30 ship limit), which makes burn speed kind of meaningless.  It would be nice if normal ships can go a short distance from core and back, and tankers would be useful for long sector tours, not simple round-trip between two points.  In other words, ships that are not tankers carry too little fuel.

[Goumindong]

I admit it! My primary goal is to rid the game of the tyranny of fuel. Fuel is cool, it's just too shackling at present.

Ah, gotcha I think it's a difference of preference, then - I'd like fuel, and running out of it, to be something you're almost always concerned about. Feel-wise, I think that's good for making exploration feel more dangerous. The "tyranny" is a feature, if you will. Not to say it couldn't be tuned in one direction or another, of course; it's entirely possible that it's on the harsh side right now.

Re: Food - why make it a second version of supplies?

I too like fuel; and don’t think that this proposal fixes the issue. Adding food as another resource kind of makes sense but you could easily abstract and say “you have enough food, the space required is trivial”.

That being said I think someone wrote something about fuel recently and I think it’s a pretty good thing