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[Siffrin]

early to mid game lasts like 5% of the actual game duration

You're not even going to back up that 5% figure with anything?

[Megas]

Ox burns 5 fuel, which is not good early when the rest of your ships burn 1, 2, maybe 3 fuel.  Also, Ox profile is high, which is bad for stealth.

First year in the game is mostly small ships for me.  Year two is when I may use a capital or two, but still early enough that I am still using what I can find and upgrading the fleet.  I typically assemble the final fleet by year five or six.  Colonies are still not very profitable until they reach size 6 at about year ten or later.  For me at least, I avoid tugs for the first two years minimum.  I get tugs later when I have Prometheus or two in the fleet to support long distance trips for a typical 200k bounty-sized fleet with many big ships.

Early game when I may want Apogee with burn 20, I suck up it and slap Augmented Engines on it.  I usually do it only if I want to use starter Apogee instead of a Dram for a solo mission out in the fridge if I need to haul more than fuel.

[kaoseth]

Ox burns 5 fuel, which is not good early when the rest of your ships burn 1, 2, maybe 3 fuel.  Also, Ox profile is high, which is bad for stealth.

The stealth issue is entirely fixed by s-mod insulated drive assembly.  Efficiency Overhaul goes a long way, though s-mod isn't needed for it, and I like S-mod solar shielding instead. 

That said, first year goes quickly.   But setting up an ox with the s-mod insulated drive assembly is one of the first S-mods I do, given how useful long term it is to travel faster. 

[kaoseth]

Give the Apogee 9 burn so it can be used in 20 burn exploration fleets. Swapping a small hardpoint for a medium one wasn't really worth it for a 2 DP increase but I don't want to make the Apogee stronger in combat since the Champion already exists so instead how about we make its exploration aspect better?

Personally, the buff I want to see is proper placement and arc coverage of the weapons it does have.  The ship feels like it was designed as a newbie tutorial that has never been maintained.  Here's weird turret placements, so that you can learn to rotate your ship!  And a mix of different weapons that'd you never put on the same weapon group.  Time to learn how to use the right weapon for the right situation!   


The game is past needing that. 
So in the end, the ship is just awkward.  It also has the crew requirements of a low tech while being high tech, like someone forgot to turn it down during a tuning pass, so you're paying way more than it's DP worth per month for the privilege of using it. 

[Killer of Fate]

Give the Apogee 9 burn so it can be used in 20 burn exploration fleets. Swapping a small hardpoint for a medium one wasn't really worth it for a 2 DP increase but I don't want to make the Apogee stronger in combat since the Champion already exists so instead how about we make its exploration aspect better?

Personally, the buff I want to see is proper placement and arc coverage of the weapons it does have.  The ship feels like it was designed as a newbie tutorial that has never been maintained.  Here's weird turret placements, so that you can learn to rotate your ship!  And a mix of different weapons that'd you never put on the same weapon group.  Time to learn how to use the right weapon for the right situation!   


The game is past needing that. 
So in the end, the ship is just awkward.  It also has the crew requirements of a low tech while being high tech, like someone forgot to turn it down during a tuning pass, so you're paying way more than it's DP worth per month for the privilege of using it.

if i wanted to buff Apogee I would just give it 0.6 shields back... It's a slow ship that is either forced to use beam weapons or risky short-ranged options it might be too slow to catch up with. I don't understand why it needs to be squishy on top... It currently can't really perform as anything than an oversized Sunder with a rocket launcher.

[Thaago]

... I mean, its not squishy even with .7 shield.

It has 17.14k base shield hitpoints with no capacitors/hullmods/skills/etc. For reference a Sunder has 6250, and every cap on the apogee gives 1.7 times more shield hitpoints.

[Killer of Fate]

... I mean, its not squishy even with .7 shield.

It has 17.14k base shield hitpoints with no capacitors/hullmods/skills/etc. For reference a Sunder has 6250, and every cap on the apogee gives 1.7 times more shield hitpoints.

low OP budget means adding capacitors is going to be hard
low range and mobility means it'll always be eating a lot of damage
very large hitbox makes it very easy to eat a lot of damage from sabot, autocannon, etc.
Sunder is the squishiest thing in the entire game
High base shield spending makes it hard for the ship to eat beam damage, etc.
No frontal PD means it'll eat a lot of missiles...

[Doctorhealsgood]

Surely 700 ish range common in non-beam large energy isn't that low of a range. And in terms of PD it does have active flares.

[Killer of Fate]

Surely 700 ish range common in non-beam large energy isn't that low of a range. And in terms of PD it does have active flares.

it's a horrible system that cannot protect you from Salamanders even with ECCM... The only way it can achieve its objective is of all the missiles were neutralised by other means, and then active flares are left to lurk towards other missiles... The issue comes from the fact that the activation range is really small... Which means by the time the ship chooses to use the system, the missile is about to connect. Even though the ship could basically easily intercept it if it simply chose to launch the flares earlier.

[Sandor057]

it's a horrible system that cannot protect you from Salamanders even with ECCM... The only way it can achieve its objective is of all the missiles were neutralised by other means, and then active flares are left to lurk towards other missiles... The issue comes from the fact that the activation range is really small... Which means by the time the ship chooses to use the system, the missile is about to connect. Even though the ship could basically easily intercept it if it simply chose to launch the flares earlier.

I kinda don't see the issue in this particular instance. Your 360° shield deals well enough with Salamanders. Active flares are for missiles from the front or the sides.

[Killer of Fate]

it's a horrible system that cannot protect you from Salamanders even with ECCM... The only way it can achieve its objective is of all the missiles were neutralised by other means, and then active flares are left to lurk towards other missiles... The issue comes from the fact that the activation range is really small... Which means by the time the ship chooses to use the system, the missile is about to connect. Even though the ship could basically easily intercept it if it simply chose to launch the flares earlier.

I kinda don't see the issue in this particular instance. Your 360° shield deals well enough with Salamanders. Active flares are for missiles from the front or the sides.

well, they wont save u from that either

[Thaago]

It depends on the build: if the rear two slots are used for pd (can be downsized to small even) then it has coverage in all but dead ahead. It is not ideal because the AI will yaw to target missiles and its main gun will go off target, but between that and active flares I've never had a big problem with missiles vs apogees.

Sure, its not a low tech ship: it relies on the shield to deal with big missiles strikes, not PD. But the shield is good.

The Hammerhead is a ship that I feel like really struggles from frontal missiles as its PD arcs are even worse than an apogee's!

[Killer of Fate]

It depends on the build: if the rear two slots are used for pd (can be downsized to small even) then it has coverage in all but dead ahead. It is not ideal because the AI will yaw to target missiles and its main gun will go off target, but between that and active flares I've never had a big problem with missiles vs apogees.

Sure, its not a low tech ship: it relies on the shield to deal with big missiles strikes, not PD. But the shield is good.

The Hammerhead is a ship that I feel like really struggles from frontal missiles as its PD arcs are even worse than an apogee's!

this post has been heavily edited, excuse me for confusion

it's underpowered in enemy hands... Either rework the variant, the system (not to be confused with the ship system) (though I doubt that'll help much, cause i believe the ship itself doesn't work) or buff the ship. The player being able to utilise a ship asset is mediocre success...

[Doctorhealsgood]

Seems like the issue is with the AI decision making regarding the system rather the system itself.

[Phenir]

Seems like the issue is with the AI decision making regarding the system rather the system itself.

Suggesting to fix the AI is forbidden