Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Planet Search Overhaul (07/13/24)

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6

Author Topic: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?  (Read 13397 times)

DownTheDrain

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2021, 01:31:51 PM »

It sounds like Madskills' first name may be Karen.

That's a bit uncalled for.
Though I do love the fact that he's trying to educate two of the game's most prolific modders on how to create a mod with proper "depth".
Logged

Jaghaimo

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2021, 01:59:20 PM »

I'll leave this low-effort (128 LoC) of mine at making the game more interesting: https://github.com/jaghaimo/starpocalypse

Personal view: by not being able to (easily) cherry-pick the best weapons and ships the game becomes much more challenging and deep - feels more like roguelike where each run is different as you work with what RNG (salvage et al.) gives you.
Logged

Retry

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2021, 02:11:31 PM »

-Mods adding ships or weapons that are categorically better than the median make the game easier, because the player can prioritize them while AI autofits will only occasionally land on them.

-Mods adding ships or weapons that are categorically worse than the median make the game easier, because the player can neglect to ignore them while AI autofits will still take them.

-Mods adding ideally balanced ship ships or weapons make the game easier, because the player can utilize their specific strengths and weaknesses to yield a slightly more min-maxed ship, while autofits may or may not apply the new weapons very well.*

Conclusion: Any mod that adds any player-accessible content will result in an easier game.

Clearly what is needed is a mod that replaces existing ships and guns with Hounds and Thumpers.



I do find it interesting that the OP singles out the Pirates and Luddic Path, so let's focus on those for a second.  Those specific factions don't get buffed because they're intended to be low-end, poorly funded, introductory threats; they're generally the first ships you ever fight.  Neither of which are intended to be strong opposition forces, especially compared to vanilla organized factions.  You can get under-moduled Orbital Stations as pirate bounties (2 modules of 3, used to be 1 module as recently as last update), and all the weak random bounties are pulled from random Pirates.  Pirates have maybe 1 or 2 heavy industries and no nanoforge, and Pathers don't even have the Heavy Industry capacity.

Strictly speaking, it's perfectly possible to arbitrarily buff both of those factions, such as giving a Nanoforge planet to Pirates/Pathers, shoving in Pirate-y ships that are closer in power levels to Falcon (P)s than Wolf (P)s, and cranking their frequency way up, adding special elite skins of Pirates akin to the XIV Battlegroup**, but that's not usually done by faction packs or For one, it's outside the scope of most content packs unless it's a generic pack or a "buff pirates" sort of pack.  For two, it's a general rule that you don't arbitrarily go against theme of any said faction when introducing new content:  Dominant factions remain dominant, weak pirates remain weak, and Tri-Tachyon remains an avid user of all things high tech and Phase, unless changing the status quo is an explicit goal of the content pack.

I vaguely recall a mod originally billed as a Hullmod expansion pack, which also had an undocumented effect of buffing Remnants basically across the board.  That'd make fighting Remnants more difficult naturally, but this was rather controversial because, among other things, the mod was never billed as a "change vanilla content" mod or a "make things harder" mod.

*IME while a generally well-balanced mod will necessarily yield slightly-more min-maxed ships (as otherwise it'd fall under "categorically worse than vanilla" content balance-wise), this has a trivial impact on game difficulty, if any.  To me, the game becomes no more difficult if I uninstall all the mods and in some ways actually becomes easier (I haven't "memorized" to a practical effect all the weapons of my mods, which is not true for Vanilla ships and weapons).

**Yeah I know about the reAL DoMaIN stuff, but that's a meme so it doesn't count
Logged

Yunru

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2021, 02:58:53 PM »

Also as an aside, as one of the many authors of a Pirate content mod, I feel slightly slighted that I'm not mentioned :P

Sundog

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1736
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2021, 04:05:52 PM »

I'll leave this low-effort (128 LoC) of mine at making the game more interesting: https://github.com/jaghaimo/starpocalypse

Personal view: by not being able to (easily) cherry-pick the best weapons and ships the game becomes much more challenging and deep - feels more like roguelike where each run is different as you work with what RNG (salvage et al.) gives you.
Just saw this on discord and I look forward to trying it for my next run. Good idea!

Harmful Mechanic

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1340
  • On break.
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2021, 05:52:33 PM »

Yeah, I came to watch 'Madskills' dig himself a deep, deep hole, I stayed for the difficulty mod I didn't know I needed. Looking forward to an extended run under these market rules.

I'll leave this low-effort (128 LoC) of mine at making the game more interesting: https://github.com/jaghaimo/starpocalypse

Personal view: by not being able to (easily) cherry-pick the best weapons and ships the game becomes much more challenging and deep - feels more like roguelike where each run is different as you work with what RNG (salvage et al.) gives you.
Just saw this on discord and I look forward to trying it for my next run. Good idea!
Logged

Madskills

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2021, 08:51:36 PM »

I'll leave this low-effort (128 LoC) of mine at making the game more interesting: https://github.com/jaghaimo/starpocalypse

Personal view: by not being able to (easily) cherry-pick the best weapons and ships the game becomes much more challenging and deep - feels more like roguelike where each run is different as you work with what RNG (salvage et al.) gives you.
I actually like where this is going. I had ideas in a similar direction too, like making factions suspicious if they end up spotting you with one of their high-tier ships from out of the blue (read: you are not under their comission and have not bought them from their military market). Sure, maybe not all factions, but I certainly would expect Hegemony to become suspicious seeing you sporting an Onslaught or TT seeing your paragon. Basically in my opinion in order to have a Paragon in your fleet, you need to become either Tri-Tachyon's ally (and buy it) or their enemy (and defend it).
I like the idea of this mod, I'll give it a try.

PS btw I love the idea of your stellar network mod. it feels like something one would expect vanilla to have.

-Mods adding ships or weapons that are categorically better than the median make the game easier, because the player can prioritize them while AI autofits will only occasionally land on them.

-Mods adding ships or weapons that are categorically worse than the median make the game easier, because the player can neglect to ignore them while AI autofits will still take them.

-Mods adding ideally balanced ship ships or weapons make the game easier, because the player can utilize their specific strengths and weaknesses to yield a slightly more min-maxed ship, while autofits may or may not apply the new weapons very well.*
Even though it's sarcasm, it's actually largely true. I agree with your formulation of the problem, but I disagree with your conclusion: it's certainly possible to add player-accessible content without making it easier. I also do agree that just randomly buffing pirates, luddics or remnants is arbitrary, anti-thematic and boring. However, not addressing the problem at all is not a solution either. In my opinion, best solutions come from limiting player's access to modded(and maybe even vanilla) content. Also making tech harder to acquire makes it more rewarding too.

Though I do love the fact that he's trying to educate two of the game's most prolific modders on how to create a mod with proper "depth".
Are you saying that in order to form an opinion on existing mods I must be one of this game's most prolific modders? It does not really take a master sushi chef to form an opinion on sushi.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 09:26:35 PM by Madskills »
Logged

HungwellHamburger

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2021, 09:01:51 PM »

I'll leave this low-effort (128 LoC) of mine at making the game more interesting: https://github.com/jaghaimo/starpocalypse

Personal view: by not being able to (easily) cherry-pick the best weapons and ships the game becomes much more challenging and deep - feels more like roguelike where each run is different as you work with what RNG (salvage et al.) gives you.

Thank you. This is what I am after, reasonable difficulty and a real reason to scavenge. Although...If theres an option to add a civilian tag to weaponry, the jank mining stuff and low op drones, thatd be reasonable, right?
Logged

Madskills

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2021, 09:13:59 PM »

If theres an option to add a civilian tag to weaponry, the jank mining stuff and low op drones, thatd be reasonable, right?
Honestly having to fight with civilian "weapons" because it's the only thing you have access to at first? -- sounds amazing from both meta-progression perspective as well as RP perspective.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 09:31:28 PM by Madskills »
Logged

DownTheDrain

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2021, 09:47:53 PM »

Are you saying that in order to form an opinion on existing mods I must be one of this game's most prolific modders? It does not really take a master sushi chef to form an opinion on sushi.

Right, except you didn't just form an opinion. You were trying to tell two sushi chefs how they're supposed to prepare their dishes, to stick with your example.
Logged

Jaghaimo

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2021, 12:03:30 AM »

Quote from: Madskills
PS btw I love the idea of your stellar network mod. it feels like something one would expect vanilla to have.

Hah, but that mod makes the game much easier (especially Market searches as it lets you cherry-pick ships and weapons easily).

Thank you. This is what I am after, reasonable difficulty and a real reason to scavenge. Although...If theres an option to add a civilian tag to weaponry, the jank mining stuff and low op drones, thatd be reasonable, right?

Junk weapons have low tier, thus will be available in any Military Market without the need to have a commission.
Logged

Chairman Suryasari

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
  • The Deployer of John Lennon's.
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2021, 12:44:05 AM »

Guys, I found something new outside called Sun and Grass. Let's calm down a little bit, spend quality time outside together with friend and family, then come back later when our mood improved.

Don't be too invested in online life, it's not worth the time and more importantly your mind. There is a reason why there is a correlation between social media and anti-depressant abuse.
Logged
"Kids under 13 shouldn't have access to the internet. if 10yo me were on tumblr and read about suicide and depression 5 hours a day, every day, god knows i would jump off a bridge if my parents ever yell at me."

-Some random Youtube comment on video about Sonic OC.

Madskills

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2021, 12:45:23 AM »

Quote from: Madskills
PS btw I love the idea of your stellar network mod. it feels like something one would expect vanilla to have.

Hah, but that mod makes the game much easier (especially Market searches as it lets you cherry-pick ships and weapons easily).
It does make it simpler but only because the vanilla game does not have this seemingly basic functionality to start with. Like, I find it hard to imagine a distant future where I have to physically travel from planet to planet to check what wares each of them provides instead of looking up some sort of online catalogue. In my opinion, the game should give the player a perfect knowledge of all open market wares and should be balanced around it to start with. In other words, having bad trading tools is not a good way to balance trade.

Are you saying that in order to form an opinion on existing mods I must be one of this game's most prolific modders? It does not really take a master sushi chef to form an opinion on sushi.
Right, except you didn't just form an opinion. You were trying to tell two sushi chefs how they're supposed to prepare their dishes, to stick with your example.
I only have to propose specific solutions because time and time again people give me advice like "just increase number of pirate spawns 5 times" and "just bump tariffs to 50%", so I have to provide examples to show that bumping tariffs is absolutely not what I'm calling a deeper progression.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 12:48:35 AM by Madskills »
Logged

Yunru

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2021, 01:24:28 AM »

Guys, I found something new outside called Sun and Grass.
Can I mod it?
Or at least turn down the lens Flare?

5/10, very pretty but too much grinding. Feels like a pay-to-win game that removed payment options at the last minute.
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6