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[SCC]

For the fleet size specifically, I believe the bigger issue is that endgame fleets are so big, rather than that you can field fleets so big yourself. It wasn't an issue previously, even after FP cap was removed. Making money at the beginning might be slightly different, but overall it's the same over the course of the game: you hunt bounties, explore, survey, trade, smuggle. Contact missions provide some variety, but you're just as likely doing them to roll for the "mission" of buying a given faction's equipment.
No one brings 30 capitals to fight Remnants because that's not necessary, you don't ever fight 30 capitals at once. Even fighting more than 1 or 2 ordos is mostly an artificial exercise, not something that most people do. Yet (especially with colonies) it can be affordable to bring ridiculous fleets to fight Remnants. Even without colonies it can be affordable to fight Remnants with a big fleet. The affordability of ships only changes how long it takes players to acquire their endgame fleets. It doesn't change what those endgame fleets are going to be.

[CapnHector]

It would be pointless to field so many capitals because you only have 10 officers without mercenaries, your ships start to become individually weaker with more than 240 DP, and there is no benefit to getting beyond 500% xp.

In fact if you fight 5-6 Ordos rather than 3-4 Ordos it is as a challenge or showmatch (and might I add, the game normally doesn't even let you fight more than 4 at once with any normal sized fleet due to the mercy mechanics, which is why I hauled the empty ziggurat previously and now haul tweaked FP Prometheus to bypass the mercy mechanics and give a harder fight). In such a long fight you are forced to retreat even without swapping capitals- which you would have to, to leverage your 30 - very likely taking losses. Restoring multiple capitals costs an amount of credits that is not trivial even for an Ordo farming endgame player. If you take 240 DP with 10 officers vs 3-4 Ordos you get max bonus XP for minimum risk. More ships or officers means you will need to engage more Ordos to get +500% xp, increasing risk for you. More Ordos does not grant more bonus XP and is tedious and difficult to even get the game to give you the fight. That is why arbitrarily large fleets are a canard, nobody does it and there would never be a reason to. It's not even stylish (I'm biased here ofc).

The real endgame "problem" is that fights are too easy for a properly built fleet. Only multi Ordo stacks are somewhat challenging. I didn't do the video yet but I have a battle planned where the 6 Ordo 5 Onslaughts, unaltered, battle a star fortress and 1 capital fleet from each faction in the game. I can make it to the end but didn't win so far mostly because the fleet from Omega is really hard. But human fleets... any number of them is trivial for a properly built fleet, and they're even craven in battle and tedious to fight.

Game needs to be more challenging. However we must also recognize new players actually find it challenging as is. Suggest adding New Game+ Dark Souls mode where every enemy is Fearless and kitted with the best weapons, S-mods and level 8 officers. Well, maybe there's something in the abyss...

Excuse steam of consciousness writing, /rant.

Edit to add: because it's occasionally doubted human fleets are worthless, linking to 2276 DP of Hegemony fighting 4 of my anti-Ordo executors under AI control and without even micro, just 1 Defend order. https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=27370.msg404272#msg404272

Imagine, they even managed to deal 26% hull damage to one Executor, only losing 20 Onslaughts worth of DP doing so, before I decided it's a pointless waste of time and stopped the fight. At least they should not retreat, it's thoroughly unenjoyable. Hegemony has no honor.

[Sly]

Spoiler

The game already rewards you for fighting larger fleets with smaller ones and with fewer officers, you know. For example bonus xp, and skill DP caps. There's a reason why I and other high level players don't bring 30 capitals to fight Remnant stacks. Why not invest in mechanics like that if you feel more incentive to use smaller fleets in the endgame is needed, rather than add extra rules about what's not allowed in the sandbox.

Edit: dang it broke my vow of not engaging in arguments anymore. Note to self: Alex will figure it out what he wants to do, better to focus on generating content that's fun.

[close]

I don't think friendly discussion is 'arguing', so I think you're all clear?

The bonus to XP is nice, of course. If I'm not receiving 300~% bonus XP throughout my playthrough, I'm not feeling especially satisfied, either with the level of difficulty or the reward compelling enough for fighting one vs. many.

As for shaking up fleet/DP cap, well... there are already limitations at every level and type of play, most of them arbitrary. Starsector is certainly a sandbox, but it's absolutely laden with rules. If there's going to be a rule (i.e. 30 ships of any type and no more or you WILL PAY), then why not make it fun and make sense, too? In fact, if you read my proposal more closely, you'd certainly realize it would be possible to field even more ships in the end by investing in the skills and infrastructure necessary, pushing over the soft DP limit, and spending the extra supply to do it. I think it would be a fantastic crutch for new players entering the late game, and allow the player to engage in a game of numbers superiority over other lone fleets, if that's what they desire. More importantly, putting the focus on DP rather than a hard hull limit allows for a more robust and interesting diversity in ships available to deploy. Or... more of whatever you want, theoretically?

In the meantime, in the early-to-late mid game, smaller fleet sizes for everyone speeds the slog of combat along: you can choose, as a new player to engage smaller fleets piecemeal, or lure the escorts away, or as a veteran to engage the stack and fight the same kind of battle you're used to. Or... anything in-between since there are options, instead of one big monotonous fleet. We see this occasionally in some parts of the game, a larger fleet supported by one or two smaller fleets in defense of a planet or station.

All other considerations aside, and purely from a selfish perspective, it sounds fun to me. The player and their staff coming into their own and beginning to work together, establishing professional trust and improving efficiency, building up infrastructure to support their fleet, and so on. It's satisfying from a gameplay and a story perspective.

Anyways, I'm fairly certain continuing to talk about my idea is a moot point. I'm not sure about the likelihood of such a change being adopted, and it was fun to consider for a couple days, but I have to assume that's there's only a very small chance.

As for the endgame... if it isn't trivialized, then did you really learn anything along the way? The tools are all there, laid out for you. I guess that's why I prefer the journey, rather than the destination. If I'm just going to stand on the peak all alone and become bored, then I'd rather just start a new playthrough and crawl my way up from scratch, once again.