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[Doom101]

-snip-
However the less hegemony (and more pirate) activity the less traders work in a sector and colonies there are constantly in need of certain wares they pay at a premium for.

This way you could also differenciate the trader fleet compositions in systems depending on their "safety levels" with solitary Buffalos flying around in safe ones Mules/Hounds in mildly dangerouns ones and infrequently a fleet of Tarsus/Atlas class ships escorted by Hegemony Cruisers/Destroyers in the most dangerous sectors the hegemony has some interest in shipping large ammounts of freight in and out.

This way a player that wants to focus on trading gets something to do between (semi) random disasters (that let him earn thick wads of cash if he plays the cards right).

You know what would be awesome if that last part about relatively unprotected fleets in really safe areas goes in?

instead of playing the bounty hunter who kills all the pirates, or the trader who runs whole economies, being the boldest pirate in the sector that sets up shop right in the heart of the hegemony and makes all those unprotected buffalos and other freighters fear for their lives. for a fast frigate fleet it'd be like taking candy from a baby, delicious money flavored candy. ( especially at a high NAV level with that and hullmods most frigates can sustain a 14 or 16 burn level while not even in hyper space)  Although i imagine being the only hostile target in a system filled with hegemony patrols and defense fleets might get very hectic very fast when suddenly everyone wants you dead.

[Sonlirain]

You know what would be awesome if that last part about relatively unprotected fleets in really safe areas goes in?

instead of playing the bounty hunter who kills all the pirates, or the trader who runs whole economies, being the boldest pirate in the sector that sets up shop right in the heart of the hegemony and makes all those unprotected buffalos and other freighters fear for their lives. for a fast frigate fleet it'd be like taking candy from a baby, delicious money flavored candy. ( especially at a high NAV level with that and hullmods most frigates can sustain a 14 or 16 burn level while not even in hyper space)  Although i imagine being the only hostile target in a system filled with hegemony patrols and defense fleets might get very hectic very fast when suddenly everyone wants you dead.

A pirate would need a safe place to "set up shop" after all he needs supplies to keep his ship working.
However the safer sectors don't have any pirate outsposts or rival factions in them so if you make its inhabitants hate you... well you have nowhere to buy supplies from and will have to leave sooner than later (assuming you can't scavenge all required materials off wrecked buffalos).

[David]

I wonder what's the biggest change in the story since David took over the lore rudders. Looking forward to finding out.

In general terms I *think* Ivaylo had more of a Warhammer 40k/Dune-ish angle on things, some kind of 'operatic scifi' maybe (I guess that's "space opera", but the meaning has mutated, expanded, and been reinterpreted a bit), though I can't say for sure because I'm not Ivaylo nor do I know Warhammer 40k in any depth - while I'm more ... um, I'd have to write you a list of sf books. Which is a great idea for a blog post actually! (And I recall that the manual for Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri had a reading list in the back, which was awesome.)

But some of my favourite SF authors (right now) are probably Iain M. Banks (may he RIP), Alastair Reynolds, maybe Ken Macleod which probably tells you something if you're familiar with their work. May be forgetting some; growing up I used to read all sorts of stuff from my mom's science fiction collection, which was huge. Probably read most of the "years best SF" collections edited by Gardner Dozois for example; tons of Bear, Brin, Niven, Heinlein, LeGuin, KSR, etc. I'll go into more detail in a hypothetical blog post. History is also a big source of material, making parallels to historical events & etc. 

Bewarned I can ramble on about this for quite some time.

[Mattk50]

Im a little worried about the... validity of the trade system. if it is *only* random events creating trade opportunities, there is a large problem. Additionally, some profit should be possible even without these events, so you have something to scrounge if you really need to.

What i mean is, all these fleets of traders roaming around, if a certain station has a pirate infestation at a certain point in its orbit maybe, that prevents any traders from getting to that station, during that period prices should rise due to lack of traders visiting and prices could go up.

I agree with the assessment that from your blog post, it sounds like trading will be nothing more than a thing you get a popup quest for every now and then and do, rather than a real profession that makes buying an atlas fleet worth it. It could just be from the blog's presentation rather than your actual intentions though.

Edit: additionally, if im not a trader getting trader event popups could get very annoying. it did in evochron mercenary and that was only for distress calls.

[Alex]

A more general question, Alex: Can you estimate how much of your dev time is spent on conceptualizing/design, and how much is the actual programming/implementation? I can't help to notice that by now you came up with a whole bunch of pretty unique, intricate game mechanics of which I had never heard before. I wonder if you maybe spent much more time thinking about what you're doing than it is the case in the average game production.

Ah, thanks I'm pretty sure even the stuff I think is new/unique isn't; with very few exceptions - and speaking generally, not just about Starsector - it's all been done before. That's not a bad thing, though; there's plenty of room to put things together in interesting combinations, or just to try to execute something better than it's been done before.

To answer your question, it's really hard to estimate, and beyond that, I have no idea what "average" is. To make things even more confusing, a lot of what one might classify as "design" is the result of a lot of iteration, so how would you even count the time spent, you know, creating the five prior versions of one thing or another, until it finally felt right, or close to it? A good example is the command UI - look where it started out vs where it's at now, and then consider there were a few extra iterations along the way that never saw the light of day

Oh, and on the news reports: Will they be objective, reliable reports or will they be colored by faction politics? What I want to know is basically if they are going to be "just" an UI element or another game mechanic, a battlefield of information.

Very much leaning towards the latter, tempered by not making things much too complicated.

And I have to mention how great this whole thing could work in conjunction with the boarding system: Intercepting  freighters just before they reach their target and boarding them to maximize the amount of the currently "hot" resource you get in your greedy claws - that's a real good motivation to attempt a now oh so risky boarding maneuver!

Hmm, yeah. Hadn't considered that, but that's pretty neat and "free".

While i like the ideas of events that shape the sector (and let you earn thick wads of cash) i still think trading should be profitable... at least usually.
BUT
there will be a lot of competotors in safer sectors with a lot of hegemony presence so the earnings will be miserable when you take fuel and ship maitenance costs into account.

However the less hegemony (and more pirate) activity the less traders work in a sector and colonies there are constantly in need of certain wares they pay at a premium for.

Of course you could bring a well armed fleet there and trade without worrying about pirates... till they decide to gang up.
Or the planet there is too small or underdeveloped to generate enough trade goods for your atlas and three escort onslaughts to be profitable when taking maitenance costs into account.

I get what you're saying - that sounds good on paper. But as much as it seems like it could work, I'm pretty sure that there'd be some cases where a safe, easy route was also profitable. With players being really good at spotting that sort of thing, it wouldn't matter if the system works 99% of the time. They'd be doing the 1% thing because it's optimal. Trying to get that sort of "organic" system to work 100% of the time is like herding cats, not going to happen.

Then, you also create the need for the player to be aware of prices of everything, everywhere. With the "no profit except for extraordinary circumstances" approach, the price of food who-knows-where generally *doesn't matter*, and that's a really good thing.

I should say that there's one case where I'd like something like regular trade to be profitable - shipping exotic, luxury goods. The idea there is that they bring in more profit further away from their world of origin, so design-wise, you're guaranteed that it's going to be a very long trip. Then, if the trip itself is difficult enough (having to refuel/resupply on the way, maybe pirates specifically hunting you since they know you carry high-value stuff, etc), it could work without becoming repetitive. Really need to see it in action, though, and it might need even more star systems than the next release will have to work properly.

[Cycerin]

I wonder what's the biggest change in the story since David took over the lore rudders. Looking forward to finding out.

In general terms I *think* Ivaylo had more of a Warhammer 40k/Dune-ish angle on things, some kind of 'operatic scifi' maybe (I guess that's "space opera", but the meaning has mutated, expanded, and been reinterpreted a bit), though I can't say for sure because I'm not Ivaylo nor do I know Warhammer 40k in any depth - while I'm more ... um, I'd have to write you a list of sf books. Which is a great idea for a blog post actually! (And I recall that the manual for Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri had a reading list in the back, which was awesome.)

But some of my favourite SF authors (right now) are probably Iain M. Banks (may he RIP), Alastair Reynolds, maybe Ken Macleod which probably tells you something if you're familiar with their work. May be forgetting some; growing up I used to read all sorts of stuff from my mom's science fiction collection, which was huge. Probably read most of the "years best SF" collections edited by Gardner Dozois for example; tons of Bear, Brin, Niven, Heinlein, LeGuin, KSR, etc. I'll go into more detail in a hypothetical blog post. History is also a big source of material, making parallels to historical events & etc.  

Bewarned I can ramble on about this for quite some time.

Cool. Yeah, I got that vibe too. Especially the Warhammer/Dune stuff with a "past age of glory and sin" that can never be relived by Humanity.

Those writers... all the greats, practically. I'm very much inspired by Banks, Brin, Niven and etc. myself. I also really like old, pulpy sci-fi, like Cordwainer Smith.. he might have popped up in those old anthologies, I can imagine. From what I can pick up on, it seems like the vibe is now less of a.. post-technological setting, and more of a standard dystopia, where everything is in a slow decline, and those who have power end up reigning over the rest?

[Sonlirain]

I should say that there's one case where I'd like something like regular trade to be profitable - shipping exotic, luxury goods. The idea there is that they bring in more profit further away from their world of origin, so design-wise, you're guaranteed that it's going to be a very long trip. Then, if the trip itself is difficult enough (having to refuel/resupply on the way, maybe pirates specifically hunting you since they know you carry high-value stuff, etc), it could work without becoming repetitive. Really need to see it in action, though, and it might need even more star systems than the next release will have to work properly.

I agree. I think it would be cool if there were 4 luxury goods (maybe faction specific?) each made in one of the 4 corners of the sector (not literally but close) that would require a fairly long trek.
Also form a pure traders perspective its infinitely better than having to prey on RNG events since those while fun are definitely not a reliable form of income.

[Verrius]

I very much like what I read.

In fact, from the moment I finished the first paragraph, in my mind I pictured a scenario of myself sitting at a table, with an officer telling me about some juicy information about a far off planet in need of resources.

I like the move towards that versus the "standard" trading. In reality, the buy-low-sell-high trading system doesn't actually make much sense; Most of the time, that sort of thing is handled behind closed doors, with businesses and corporations working with specific suppliers. I can see it work for less civilized worlds, but for mega-corporations, I can't imagine they'd operate like normal space games do, except in of course very unusual circumstances like these events.
 
Not that that sort of trading shouldn't be at least potentially viable. But in reality, I can't see it being such a way to get rich easy like most games. Trading would generally work more like getting employed for freight work or mercenary contracting.

[Mattk50]

I should say that there's one case where I'd like something like regular trade to be profitable - shipping exotic, luxury goods. The idea there is that they bring in more profit further away from their world of origin, so design-wise, you're guaranteed that it's going to be a very long trip. Then, if the trip itself is difficult enough (having to refuel/resupply on the way, maybe pirates specifically hunting you since they know you carry high-value stuff, etc), it could work without becoming repetitive. Really need to see it in action, though, and it might need even more star systems than the next release will have to work properly.

I agree. I think it would be cool if there were 4 luxury goods (maybe faction specific?) each made in one of the 4 corners of the sector (not literally but close) that would require a fairly long trek.
Also form a pure traders perspective its infinitely better than having to prey on RNG events since those while fun are definitely not a reliable form of income.

I hope the luxury goods are intended to be traded in large enough quantities for making it worthwhile for traders to invest in freighters

[Gothars]

how would you even count the time spent, you know, creating the five prior versions of one thing or another, until it finally felt right, or close to it?

I would classify that as externalized thinking

Oh, and on the news reports: Will they be objective, reliable reports or will they be colored by faction politics? What I want to know is basically if they are going to be "just" an UI element or another game mechanic, a battlefield of information.

Very much leaning towards the latter, tempered by not making things much too complicated.

Great! If it goes so far that I could weaken a faction by preventing them from getting certain information, while supplying them to their competition... Shadow Broker playthrough here I come

And I have to mention how great this whole thing could work in conjunction with the boarding system: Intercepting  freighters just before they reach their target and boarding them to maximize the amount of the currently "hot" resource you get in your greedy claws - that's a real good motivation to attempt a now oh so risky boarding maneuver!

Hmm, yeah. Hadn't considered that, but that's pretty neat and "free".

Related to that, it would be ...good for my conscience to be able to play as a pirate who is not all about killing and blowing things up. Meaning, ships should be able to surrender, or at least surrender the content of their storage compartment if threatened by sufficient force.

I should say that there's one case where I'd like something like regular trade to be profitable - shipping exotic, luxury goods.

I agree. I think it would be cool if there were 4 luxury goods (maybe faction specific?) each made in one of the 4 corners of the sector (not literally but close) that would require a fairly long trek.

Or luxury goods could just be one type of trade good with a suffix about its origin. I'm hauling "Luxury goods from Corvus IV".

[Histidine]

Wait, does this mean we can't play the utterly amoral speculator who buys out 80% of a system's much-needed resources with his superior credit balance then drip-feeds it back in at extortionary prices?

[xenoargh]

Wait, does this mean we can't play the utterly amoral speculator who buys out 80% of a system's much-needed resources with his superior credit balance then drip-feeds it back in at extortionary prices?

No, you can do that behavior, too; simply dump vast quantities of Resource X into the Neutral Station and wait for opportunity to come knocking. 

In the end, that's probably the most efficient way to earn money under the system as proposed.

Anyhow, my $0.02:

1.  I like the general idea of the proposed "trade" system, in the sense that it gets rid of the really boring parts and gets rid of the icky green-eyeshades stuff. 

I also like the luxury-goods thing, which is basically how I re-implemented trade in Mount and Blade: Warband.  It offers players a way to do steady runs with steady returns and a moderate profit.

2.  It seems like, from a programming POV, that developing a system where bounties are made available on certain parties, giving players combat challenges they could undertake for fun and profit, would be pretty easy to tie to such an event-based system.  You've got the event system there; all you then need is the bounty targets and a method where the player gets paid upon completion, which is straightforward.

3.  The only issue I see with this is that, for it to really work well and feel like much of a challenge, smaller fleets need to attack the player; the way that it works right now, where they're very risk-averse, seems like it might not create a lot of challenge, if the player stays in good relations with everybody but the Pirates.

Another way to handle this is by having such activities be the first official mechanic that (finally) effects reputation in a dynamic way.  So you might bring much-needed Fertilizer to a Tri-Tachyon facility, which makes them happier with you but is looked upon with skepticism by the Hegemony (slight negative rep. per unit moved) and might be considered a criminal action by a third party (significant negative rep. per unit moved), putting the player on their hit-list.

[Obscure]

Much of this looks to be very interesting, and i'm very excited.

One thing I would like to comment on is an issue I have had with many other games with trade mechanics. that is visibility of the economy.

what do I mean by that? I mean that I'm hoping for a system here where it will be easy to see the profitable trades. perhaps some indicator of demand when you are looking to trade goods. i agree that having a repetitive buy here, sell here at a profit would be very boring, and having to find the opportunities out there would be a great was of keeping it very interesting, but i would be concerned if the process was too opaque. i hope we will be able to see these deals and make use of them the instant we start playing!

[Thana]

Well, this certainly sounds like a system that ought to make trading more interesting than hopping back and forth between planets, dodging pirates. And I like the idea of its implications going beyond just the trading subsystem.

And I'm really excited to see that whole new areas of gameplay are going to be opening up in the next update. I, at least, have been waiting for something like this for quite some time now! 

[Trylobot]

Wish I had some useful information to give you Alex regarding your post, but all I can say is, "Agree." Can't wait to play around with it.