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Author Topic: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships  (Read 18556 times)

Cycerin

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The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« on: April 07, 2015, 08:28:45 AM »

So, the Hammerhead. I've never liked it. Ostensibly meant to be the "Mario" of Starsector's combat destroyers, it's actually fairly bad at allround combat, and only really suitable for bringing in firepower to a target occupied with other enemies. The other three all have the potential to be fairly gamebreaking, but the Hammerhead? It's just sort of... there. It can be good in the hands of a player with lots of EXP, or in the fleet of a player with a lot of points in Tech, but isn't that true for any ship?

The problem with the ship is that it only has forward firepower, and usually, it only does one damage type at a time, while building flux with both damage and defense. Its extremely narrow firing arc also acts as a considerable handicap, where other frontal firepower ships often have decent traverse or other turrets that cover their ass, the Hammerhead usually has Burst PD, PD or lrPD lasers in its 4 Energy mounts, making it very safe to simply flank the ship. The recent buffs to Salamanders haven't been kind on the ship either. Compare it to the Sunder and you'll see that both ships are actually similar. The Hammerhead has a reputation for being a more steady, rounded ship, but in reality I'd argue they both end up being glass cannons, and that the Sunder might actually be a little more survivable with the default variants you tend to encounter a lot.

Compared to the Enforcer's brutal mixed-damage firepower and almost impenetrable PD screen with Flak, its four missile hardpoints and its bricky armor + HP and useful omnishield, the Hammerhead looks very unappealing. Compared to the Medusa's gamebreaking flexibility and survivability it looks even worse.

What could be done to make the Hammerhead better?

The way I see it, it needs way better flux dissipation to feed its forward firepower without overloading from too much soft + hard flux. Right now, it's got "OK" stats all around, but ends up being rather mediocre for it. That's the most elegant way to bring it up there without breaking the ship entirely. I don't think the overall layout of the ship needs to be changed, a simple stat buff should bring it back in line.

Also, due to the design of the ship, it's usually a bad idea to stick HE damage on its medium hardpoints, which is a bit sad.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 08:41:21 AM by Cycerin »
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Megas

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2015, 08:40:12 AM »

Hammerhead needs at least one of the following:
  • Burn 5.
  • At least 5 more OP.
  • Missile mounts changed to universals.
  • About 500 more flux capacity.  It has Ammo Feed Accelerator, and will max flux in a hurry!

For medium hardpoints, I try to use HVD and Mauler, if I have enough OP.  If not, I get stuck with Assault Chaingun and Heavy Autocannon or worse - gross!

EDIT:  Having 360 shields would really help.  I am really tempted to use Extended Shields to plug the hole for 360 shields, but using that hullmod often has left me with very few OP to spare elsewhere.  360 shields would help against Salamanders (and surprise strikes from teleporters).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 08:46:25 AM by Megas »
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Histidine

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2015, 08:47:29 AM »

Aside from Megas's proposals (anyone of which I'd like to varying degrees), it could have more hull/armor (to differentiate it further from Sunder). Actually, this suggests a Hammerhead/Sunder relationship vaguely similar to the Vigilance/Brawler one.

Or it could just get an actually useful ship system. I can't think of the last time I've ever wanted AAF or been happy that I had it...
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Schwartz

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2015, 08:50:32 AM »

Yep, if you compare Enforcer to Hammerhead, you'll notice that flux capacity & dissipation are almost identical. And we're comparing a Mastery and a Core epoch ship here. Get 'er more flux and maybe a bit more agility, since she's front-locked. Sunder could do with a better shield damage/flux ratio and a bit more armor.

Hammerhead with Small Universals in front is another good idea, +1.

Hammerhead works fine as fleet support, with HVDs, Harpoons and enough LR point defense to keep the combat line safe. I enjoy using it. I'm a bit wary about giving a Sunder to the NPCs because it's so fragile. And decent Large Energy weapons aren't always easy to come by.
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Tartiflette

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2015, 09:00:07 AM »

I mostly agree: it's a starting ship because it's simple and don't require much skill to get the most of it, the problem being this "most" don't amount to much.

So, crazy ideas to buff it to a medusa/enforcer level:

Four medium hard-points by replacing the missile ones (and better flux stats). That way mixing damages can become a thing and nobody will even think about crossing it's bow.

A siege mode ship system: +50% fire rate, shield coverage, shield absorption, soft flux dissipation, turn rate, -90% speed. In short it would move into position and then hold it.

A range ship system instead of fire rate. Something akin to my "Precision Gear" ship system: +50% range, -50% fire rate, +50% flux for firing the weapons and a slight speed penalty. Then it could take pot shots at approaching targets, retreat a bit, rinse and repeat.

[edit] Oh yeah, a boatload of Ordinance point would do nicely, instead of changing anything it would just make it more customizable!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 09:04:10 AM by Tartiflette »
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DatonKallandor

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2015, 09:18:30 AM »

More frontal ballistics hardpoints would really help to give the ammo feeders some more stuff to work on. More flux dissipation would be nice to make the system work too.
Burn 5 would certainly help, but goddamn does taking a ship just because it's not slow as molasses suck as a reason to take a ship. You want to take a ship because it's awesome, not because it's not tedious.

I'm not even sure it's the Hammerhead being bad that's the problem because it really isn't that bad. It's the Enforcer being so ridiculously out of whack compared to other Destroyers that's making everything else look bad in comparison.
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Schwartz

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2015, 09:24:22 AM »

Okay, here's a radical suggestion to bring Enforcer back in line and make it less prone to derp-AI at the same time: Make it shieldless.
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Megas

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2015, 09:25:54 AM »

Enforcer and Medusa are roughly on par with each other, and Sunder is a true glass cannon.  Out of the four dedicated combat destroyers, Hammerhead is sub-par compared to its peers.  Hammerhead needs to be better, not the others weakened.

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Burn 5 would certainly help, but goddamn does taking a ship just because it's not slow as molasses suck as a reason to take a ship. You want to take a ship because it's awesome, not because it's not tedious.
This is why use frigates only, or frigates and Medusa, once I get high Navigation.

EDIT:  Burn 5 on Hammerhead would be useful for bounty hunter start.  Currently, the Hammerhead is dead weight except for the LR PD Lasers I can steal from it and put them on my Wolf (who would have no PD at all otherwise at level 1).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 09:27:26 AM by Megas »
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xenoargh

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2015, 09:29:17 AM »

Honestly, I think the Hammerhead's problem is similar to the Falcon / Eagle; it potentially could be quite nasty, but it has little staying power, either shield or armor or Capacity or Dissipation, and it doesn't even have the option to really pop a lot of damage over time, as it has nowhere like enough Dissipation to use Heavy Needlers for anything but alpha strikes, amongst other things.

Thing is, Falcon / Eagle have fairly reasonable mobility due to Systems, so they can generally (with character buffs) get a break and rest up.  Hammerhead doesn't get that choice.

Honestly, I'm not sure about the 360 shields; it'd give it Salamander-proof shielding, but I'd almost rather see a small, but really-high-efficiency frontal fixed-arc shield, like the Conquest sort-of-but-not-quite had.  Like, an efficiency of .15 or better, so that, from the front, the Hammerhead is great against other ships in class, but it'd be weak on flanking.  It also needs a better base speed, giving it mobility that's really close to a Medusa's, so that that isn't a totally one-sided contest.  Right now, Medusas can kite a Hammerhead to death and take zero damage every single time.

That would at least give it a distinct role, and it'd make it even further differentiated from the Sunder, who shares too many qualities with the Hammerhead, but still sucks a bit due to mobility problems (honestly, I think it should ditch its System for Maneuvering Jets, because with so low of a Dissipation / Capacity, it's not really gaining huge amounts of total DPS from HEF; it's always been a bit of a squirrel case and player-only ship).

[EDIT]I like a lot of Tartiflette's ideas for it; give it a special Something.  Right now, that special Something is, "run out of Flux really fast but sometimes you're going to take down shields".  There is little point in the System as it stands, because it applies, 99% of the time, only to the two Medium Ballistics.[/EDIT]
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 09:32:34 AM by xenoargh »
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DatonKallandor

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2015, 10:15:46 AM »

Okay, here's a radical suggestion to bring Enforcer back in line and make it less prone to derp-AI at the same time: Make it shieldless.

Frankly I think that would just be a straight up buff for the Enforcer. The one thing that stops AI enforcers from rolling over everything is bad shields. An Enforcer that uses it's entire flux on powering its 5 medium ballistics mounts (what an insane number for a destroyer) would be stronger than ever.
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Aeson

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2015, 11:18:51 AM »

Quote
Yep, if you compare Enforcer to Hammerhead, you'll notice that flux capacity & dissipation are almost identical. And we're comparing a Mastery and a Core epoch ship here.
You probably shouldn't directly compare the total flux capacity and dissipation; rather, the capacity and dissipation per weapon would be preferable. As far as flux-using weapons go, Enforcers have 5 mediums (~10 small mount equivalents or SMEs), while Hammerheads have 2 mediums (~4 SMEs) and 4 smalls. Therefore, Hammerheads have 525 capacity and 31 dissipation per SME while Enforcers have 400 capacity and 20 dissipation per SME, at least before adding vents and capacitors. It should also be noted that Hammerheads have roughly twice as much effective shield strength as Enforcers due to shield efficiency, so even if you factor that into the capacity per gun the Hammerhead's probably still coming out ahead in usable capacity and venting per SME. If the Hammerhead's two small missile mounts were changed to small universals, it'd have 420 capacity and 25 dissipation, which I would agree might be insufficiently superior to the Enforcer's flux statistics.

As further points of comparison, the Eagle has ~588 capacity and ~31 dissipation per SME, the Dominator has ~476 capacity and ~21 dissipation per SME, the Falcon has ~700 capacity and ~35 dissipation per SME, and the Venture has ~1170 capacity and ~50 dissipation per SME, while the Sunder has ~590 capacity and ~36 dissipation per SME and the Medusa has ~545 capacity and ~36 dissipation per SME (improves to ~667 capacity and ~44 dissipation if the universals have missiles), ignoring missiles when adding up SMEs. I would also point out that the Hammerhead is hardly unique in being a more advanced vessel with little overall (or sometimes relative) improvement in flux capacity and dissipation; compare, for example, the Wolf and the Lasher, or the Odyssey and the Conquest.

The Hammerhead's flux statistics are reasonable for its armament and are a reasonable improvement over those of the Enforcer given the differences in armament; it's just that its armament seems a bit inadequate.

As far as improving the Hammerhead's armament without significantly changing the sprite goes, I could perhaps see upgrading the rear small energy mounts to medium energy mounts or putting a medium mount on the stern section somewhere in the middle (preferably somewhere that looks like it's raised enough to fire over the bow to keep with the Hammerhead's preference for head-on engagements). Or perhaps giving the Hammerhead another two small mounts on the stern section, just ahead and a bit inward of the existing pair. However, I feel it should be noted that the Hammerhead's armament is not all that much worse than the Medusa's; both vessels currently have the same forward fire concentration (two medium and four small mounts), with the Medusa's biggest advantages being that it's not limited to missiles in its two fixed small mounts and its mediums have decent arcs. The Medusa's generally superior mobility and shields tend to further exacerbate the difference since it's less necessary to put PD in the two forward small energy mounts and the Medusa can probably stick around a bit longer, depending on the exact armament chosen.

(Note on SMEs: I understand that these are probably not ideal units of comparison. However, the average ordnance point cost and flux per second of weapons roughly doubles with each increase in size category, so it's not exactly an inadequate metric to use when comparing those hull statistics, especially when you don't know what weapons are actually going to be mounted.)

Quote
Four medium hard-points by replacing the missile ones (and better flux stats). That way mixing damages can become a thing and nobody will even think about crossing it's bow.
I am of the opinion that four medium mounts on the Hammerhead's bow would look overcrowded. The Eagle's bow is about the same width and the three medium ballistics it has there are just about touching each other; same is true of the mounts on the Hammerhead if you put missile racks in the small missile mounts. I could see three medium ballistic mounts on the bow, which would still leave an adequate number of mounts for mixing damage types without the ammunition issues of using missiles, but that basically makes it the same as the Enforcer but with a more narrow cone of fire.

Okay, here's a radical suggestion to bring Enforcer back in line and make it less prone to derp-AI at the same time: Make it shieldless.

Frankly I think that would just be a straight up buff for the Enforcer. The one thing that stops AI enforcers from rolling over everything is bad shields. An Enforcer that uses it's entire flux on powering its 5 medium ballistics mounts (what an insane number for a destroyer) would be stronger than ever.
The Enforcer's shields are probably its biggest weakness in the hands of the computer, I agree with that. However, I'm less inclined to agree with rating the Enforcer's gun power at 5 medium ballistic mounts, especially if it's without shields, because you almost have to put flak cannons in the two medium ballistics on the flanks since it otherwise has little or no PD coverage.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 11:25:03 AM by Aeson »
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Megas

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2015, 11:19:52 AM »

Another nice thing about 360, or at least omni, shields is the Hammerhead is not obligated to use PD in small energy mounts.  It could use Ion Cannons (or even IR Pulse Lasers) instead of beams.  If its shield gains worse coverage, then PD lasers will be required, and you might as well make some flavor of PD builtin where the energy mounts are.

Hammerhead would have good shields if it had more flux capacity and no Accelerated Ammo Feeder generating so much flux.

Accelerated Ammo Feeder is a junk system.  The three ships that have it have mediocre flux stats, and they overload easily if their weapons are anything other than mortars or machine guns.  AI just cannot control itself with the Ammo Feeder.  Hammerhead (and Lasher and Brawler) getting a more useful ship system would make it better.

Brawler is merely a Hammerhead without the energy mounts and universal instead of missile mounts.  I prefer to use two Brawlers instead of one Hammerhead, or would if Brawlers were not rare and Hammerhead not so common.  Then again, I do not bother with either when better alternatives like Enforcers are available.


I like Sunder's High Energy Focus.  Lets it hit very hard at a good time.  Also fun for overloading ships with triple mining blaster (because AI is poor at defending against extreme spike damage).  If its system needed a change, I would like Fortress Shield so it can fire a big burst then hide behind the fortress shield and go "nyah, nyah, you can't touch me!" as it cools down.
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Euqocelbbog

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2015, 11:38:11 AM »

Honestly, I'm fine with some ships being "meh." Not every ship can or should be awesome or even particularly good.
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Megas

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2015, 11:44:17 AM »

Weird idea:  Hammerhead vaguely reminds me of the Earthling Cruiser from Star Control.  Maybe it can have a builtin beam PD system along its spine.  Maybe something that works like the Templar ships' builtin PD weapons.

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Honestly, I'm fine with some ships being "meh." Not every ship can or should be awesome or even particularly good.
That is why we have civilian ships like Hermes.  As for Hammerhead, it just does not compete with its peers very well, but all it needs is a minor boost to make it competitive.
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Thaago

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Re: The Hammerhead and other "meh" ships
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2015, 12:22:35 PM »

Long though I have loved the Hammerhead, I agree that it needs a buff. What I would like to see: a mini-conquest! The ship has a system that could potentially be very powerful, but everyone agrees doesn't work. What if we build around the system?

  • Change the front small missiles to ballistics for synergy with the ship system.
  • Boost OP by 15.
  • Make the flux stats: Capacity: 10,000, Dissipation: 600
  • Nerf the shield efficiency: 1.6? 1.8? Nerf the shield so that the ship's survivability is the same as now with the higher flux stats.

Two medium mounts + 2 smalls going at double fire rate (and not driving the ships flux through the roof in 2 seconds) is a tremendous amount of firepower for a destroyer. Basically, when the Hammerhead gets something in front of it and opens up, that thing is in serious trouble. If it is flanked it is in trouble, as now.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 12:25:56 PM by Thaago »
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