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Author Topic: Terrain  (Read 67485 times)

Alex

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #90 on: May 26, 2015, 09:13:36 PM »

There's one thing I'm looking at that's along those lines, but I don't want to talk about it yet because the implementation details are unclear. Rather, it's fairly clear how to do it, but not in any particularly mod-friendly way.

If not, then I feel they could be a bit inconsequential - if the threat is the same for you as is it for the enemy, then it doesn't matter very much whether you're fighting in a special area or not, and there's no real way to take advantage of that. But if you can install hullmods to make yourself (partially) immune to solar flares, and then trick an enemy fleet into fighting in one, that's another matter...

Even something as basic as fleet composition already plays into it - for example, frigates are more negatively affected by nebulas in combat than larger ships.

Also, even if a change of the battlefield doesn't favor one side or another, it could still favor different tactics, so it could have "fun value" there without being a strategic consideration.

Finally, I think there's value in *even purely visually* tying the battlefield to the place in the campaign you're fighting.

I do get what you're saying, though. We'll see exactly where on this spectrum things will end up.
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Morrokain

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #91 on: May 26, 2015, 10:38:05 PM »

Also, even if a change of the battlefield doesn't favor one side or another, it could still favor different tactics, so it could have "fun value" there without being a strategic consideration.

Finally, I think there's value in *even purely visually* tying the battlefield to the place in the campaign you're fighting.

I do get what you're saying, though. We'll see exactly where on this spectrum things will end up.

I think this is a good thing to point out.

If it ends up that it is really hard to implement combat effecting terrain, one of the main complaints about variety is largely satisfied simply by having visual tie-ins to areas that you are traveling through. Stations, ship graveyards, wrecks, planets and all kinds of things are made immersive just by having battles by them include them visually even if it doesn't effect anything below the campaign level. The hard part is balancing making the differentiation stand out and be noticeable enough to be immersive and cool without being a distraction.


Still, being able to effectively implement gameplay enriching terrain in combat along with those visuals would just be fantastic for storytelling and making some memorable set piece missions.
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Wyvern

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #92 on: May 27, 2015, 09:25:25 AM »

I think this is a good thing to point out.

If it ends up that it is really hard to implement combat effecting terrain, one of the main complaints about variety is largely satisfied simply by having visual tie-ins to areas that you are traveling through.
Hah, that reminds me of one thing that really wowed me about a particular old CRPG - if you were fighting in a forest, and you used a big enough fire spell, the entire background shifted to forest-on-fire.  It had no game mechanical effects, but... seriously, wow.  (Breath of Fire II, if you were curious what game I was talking about.)
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Morrokain

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #93 on: May 27, 2015, 03:20:26 PM »

]Hah, that reminds me of one thing that really wowed me about a particular old CRPG - if you were fighting in a forest, and you used a big enough fire spell, the entire background shifted to forest-on-fire.  It had no game mechanical effects, but... seriously, wow.  (Breath of Fire II, if you were curious what game I was talking about.)

Yeah I love that sort of thing! The details that really make a good game stand out to you and become great. I kind of feel like many modern developers lost a bit of touch with that kind of thing. There is actually a really interesting article about JRPGs like Final Fantasy potentially becoming mobile platform only because console games are down pretty severely. To summarize it he says that Japan is making this sort of societal shift away from anything that involves them too deeply (like storytelling) because people often spend several hours commuting alongside work so everything must be immediate gratification, convenient and have some repetitive and addicting quality to it.

I feel that many game developers all over the world are also feeling a similar pressure and so there has been a trend emerging where story elements and immersion are second to gimmicks that are meant to either "innovate" or streamline an existing playerbase into dlc consumption.

Take a look at the Resident Evil shift after 4 for example. Its such a shame because if you look at games that become defining in a genre it is usually the ones that are thorough and immersive alongside their good mechanics and graphics.

... sorry that got way off topic  ::)


Needless to say these new features are exciting for me!
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Trylobot

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #94 on: May 27, 2015, 04:07:25 PM »

Regarding visualization of a star's corona: you might have "god rays" or some such extend out from around ships, achieving a sort of extreme shadowing effect.
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Alex

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #95 on: May 27, 2015, 04:17:25 PM »

@Wyvern, Morrokain: I know just what you mean. That feeling of, "oh, wow, I didn't expect that" and where it really makes you feel like there's a world in there. It's magical. I do wonder, though - was some of the effectiveness of that is due to all of us being younger at that point, combined with having lower expectations of games? Not to say that shooting for that isn't worthwhile, just that nothing might ever match those highs, because we aren't the same.


Regarding visualization of a star's corona: you might have "god rays" or some such extend out from around ships, achieving a sort of extreme shadowing effect.

Hmm - not quite sure exactly what you're describing. Something like an "atmosphere reentry" kind of glow? (I should say, ships already do glow when they enter the corona, but the effect is rather subtle.)
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Cycerin

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #96 on: May 27, 2015, 06:52:51 PM »

@Wyvern, Morrokain: I know just what you mean. That feeling of, "oh, wow, I didn't expect that" and where it really makes you feel like there's a world in there. It's magical. I do wonder, though - was some of the effectiveness of that is due to all of us being younger at that point, combined with having lower expectations of games? Not to say that shooting for that isn't worthwhile, just that nothing might ever match those highs, because we aren't the same.

Creating that effect for a new generation has a serious appeal for me.
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Nick XR

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #97 on: May 27, 2015, 09:46:00 PM »

I'm so pumped for this next release!  Glad to see all that infrastructure investment paying off with so many big features so quickly!

Tartiflette

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #98 on: May 27, 2015, 11:32:26 PM »

Regarding visualization of a star's corona: you might have "god rays" or some such extend out from around ships, achieving a sort of extreme shadowing effect.
Hmm - not quite sure exactly what you're describing. Something like an "atmosphere reentry" kind of glow? (I should say, ships already do glow when they enter the corona, but the effect is rather subtle.)

I think he meant a "shadow" like this station:

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nomadic_leader

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #99 on: May 27, 2015, 11:37:03 PM »

@Wyvern, Morrokain: I know just what you mean. That feeling of, "oh, wow, I didn't expect that" and where it really makes you feel like there's a world in there. It's magical. I do wonder, though - was some of the effectiveness of that is due to all of us being younger at that point, combined with having lower expectations of games? Not to say that shooting for that isn't worthwhile, just that nothing might ever match those highs, because we aren't the same.

Yes, some of it is nostalgia, and we are like the old men, "to whom all the past is not a diminishing road but, instead, a huge meadow which no winter ever quite touches, divided from them now by the narrow bottle-neck of the most recent decade of years."*

On the other hand, gaming has become much bigger; to recoup huge graphics, art, etc budgets, 'big' games have to be widely appealing, while small games, to make any kind of splash on the "App stores" take the 'skinner box' approach someone mentioned earlier: the scientifically, blandly calibrated blend of challenge and reward designed to fill the time on a bus ride.

The former tend to be flashy quicktime-events not different from the rail-shooters of the 80s/90s. (e.g. God of War) All the rough edges are smoothed out, and no serious challenges or problem solving skills are required lest they eliminate potential customers. Even 'sandbox' games like Assassins' Creed pointlessly squeeze playtime with "collect 100 marmoset eyeballs" type quests: barely rewarding, but also barely challenging (as precalculated by men in white lab-coats, it often seems).

Meanwhile the cel phone timewasters are addictive not because there is anything intrinsically good about these games, but because they are chemically designed for that quality alone.

The fumbling quality of chancy innovation, creativity, and desire to challenge players is rarer now than in the past. It led to many abject failures then, but it also created masterpieces we seldom meet** in this latter, degenerate age.

So despite the potential of improved technology, today's games are as a whole in many ways objectively inferior to those of the past on a number of measurable axes.

The nice thing about Starsector is that it doesn't seem to be going this way. It's trying some unusual approaches to design challenges. Don't know how it will all turn out in the end, but at least it will be interesting.



*Faulkner

**as a ratio of interesting games: all games. Now the ratio of interesting games: all games is lower that it once was. It is possible (or not) that the absolute quantity of interesting games may have increased.
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SatchelCharge

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2015, 03:26:05 PM »

Quite a nice post
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Linnis

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2015, 09:48:56 PM »

On asthetics, its only a minor graphical upgrade. When ships fly into nebulas in battles there should be some layers covering over the ship, and some under the ships...  :P
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Ahne

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #102 on: May 28, 2015, 10:28:06 PM »

wow great idea @above, would love to see that ingame!
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Alex

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #103 on: May 28, 2015, 11:30:05 PM »

On asthetics, its only a minor graphical upgrade. When ships fly into nebulas in battles there should be some layers covering over the ship, and some under the ships...  :P

You know, I actually tried that out waaay back. It was ok - not mindblowing, just a bit different. More importantly, it was quite a performance hog.

(As you probably noticed, though, in the campaign, that's how it works - there's a second layer rendered on top, and it does make a big difference there.)
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Tartiflette

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Re: Terrain
« Reply #104 on: May 29, 2015, 12:03:45 AM »

Speaking of minor graphical upgrade, the small particles that help with movement awareness do not scale with the zoom... I find it a bit disturbing when alternating quickly close ups and wide views.
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