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Author Topic: On Trade Design  (Read 49326 times)

Alex

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2014, 03:17:47 PM »

Also form a pure traders perspective its infinitely better than having to prey on RNG events since those while fun are definitely not a reliable form of income.

That really depends on how frequent those events are, whether certain events are more likely to happen in certain areas, whether something the player does can raise the odds, whether they can get some advance notice an event is going to happen, etc.


I like the move towards that versus the "standard" trading. In reality, the buy-low-sell-high trading system doesn't actually make much sense; Most of the time, that sort of thing is handled behind closed doors, with businesses and corporations working with specific suppliers. I can see it work for less civilized worlds, but for mega-corporations, I can't imagine they'd operate like normal space games do, except in of course very unusual circumstances like these events.
 
Not that that sort of trading shouldn't be at least potentially viable. But in reality, I can't see it being such a way to get rich easy like most games. Trading would generally work more like getting employed for freight work or mercenary contracting.

Yeah, that's very much how I'm thinking about it. All the easy stuff is going to get snapped by be people on the inside track, and even out of those, only a few at the top will make serious profits.

I hope the luxury goods are intended to be traded in large enough quantities for making it worthwhile for traders to invest in freighters

Maybe. We'll have to see; the thing that's going to determine how well luxury goods trade works is whether a long trek can be made interesting and varied enough to not be repetitive. I do like the idea of hauling a ton of stuff across the Sector on an Atlas, though, since that seems to have a lot of potential for mishaps along the way.


Wait, does this mean we can't play the utterly amoral speculator who buys out 80% of a system's much-needed resources with his superior credit balance then drip-feeds it back in at extortionary prices?
No, you can do that behavior, too; simply dump vast quantities of Resource X into the Neutral Station and wait for opportunity to come knocking. 

In the end, that's probably the most efficient way to earn money under the system as proposed.

What neutral station? Actually, it'll probably be around for the next release, but I wouldn't count on that sticking around forever.

Also: buying 80% of a system's much-needed resources is going to cost a LOT of money, more than selling it back would gain you. And they're not going to sell you their last supplies etc. You can probably still find a way to set things up well for yourself, but if "buy stuff, sell it back" actually netted any profit at all, that'd be a broken system.


3.  The only issue I see with this is that, for it to really work well and feel like much of a challenge, smaller fleets need to attack the player; the way that it works right now, where they're very risk-averse, seems like it might not create a lot of challenge, if the player stays in good relations with everybody but the Pirates.

Yeah, the way the Sector is right now - even with the new star systems David is adding - I'm not sure it'll be big enough to let luxury goods trade work how it should. But it might. There are also some REDACTED ideas about making travel through non-hostile territory hazardous.


Another way to handle this is by having such activities be the first official mechanic that (finally) effects reputation in a dynamic way.  So you might bring much-needed Fertilizer to a Tri-Tachyon facility, which makes them happier with you but is looked upon with skepticism by the Hegemony (slight negative rep. per unit moved) and might be considered a criminal action by a third party (significant negative rep. per unit moved), putting the player on their hit-list.

Something like that is actually under consideration. The details might be tricky, though. Wouldn't want permanent hostility with the Hegemony because you sold 1 unit of hand weapons to Tri Tachyon 3 cycles ago.


One thing I would like to comment on is an issue I have had with many other games with trade mechanics. that is visibility of the economy.

what do I mean by that? I mean that I'm hoping for a system here where it will be easy to see the profitable trades. perhaps some indicator of demand when you are looking to trade goods. i agree that having a repetitive buy here, sell here at a profit would be very boring, and having to find the opportunities out there would be a great was of keeping it very interesting, but i would be concerned if the process was too opaque. i hope we will be able to see these deals and make use of them the instant we start playing!

Right, totally agree. Which is why I'm working on the system for getting information to the player first.


Well, this certainly sounds like a system that ought to make trading more interesting than hopping back and forth between planets, dodging pirates. And I like the idea of its implications going beyond just the trading subsystem.

And I'm really excited to see that whole new areas of gameplay are going to be opening up in the next update. I, at least, have been waiting for something like this for quite some time now!  :)

Wish I had some useful information to give you Alex regarding your post, but all I can say is, "Agree." Can't wait to play around with it.

Thanks, guys - I'm looking forward to seeing it in action myself :)
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Gothars

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2014, 03:52:11 PM »

Any thoughts on goods with an expiration date? I could imagine that it might be interesting for luxury goods if you had a timer on the delivery, and after it has run down their value starts to decrease. That could be because you have actually perishable goods, but they could also fall victim to the changing fashion, which is quite volatile for most anything considered luxurious.
In combination with the more-distance-more-profit mechanic that would also give incentive to use fast trading fleets over slow and capacious ones. You can carry more items in slow fleets, but you can't reach the highest paying markets before their value starts to decrease.
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Cycerin

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2014, 03:54:35 PM »

Will the new systems added actually begin to involve "Core Worlds" and whatnot? Corvus has always been the nexus of the Starsector campaign, is that going to change now?
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Alex

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2014, 04:03:17 PM »

Any thoughts on goods with an expiration date? I could imagine that it might be interesting for luxury goods if you had a timer on the delivery, and after it has run down their value starts to decrease. That could be because you have actually perishable goods,

Seems like it'd be too complicated to manage. Say you buy 10 units of perishables, and then 10 more a day later, etc. Would be a mess.

... but they could also fall victim to the changing fashion, which is quite volatile for most anything considered luxurious.
In combination with the more-distance-more-profit mechanic that would also give incentive to use fast trading fleets over slow and capacious ones. You can carry more items in slow fleets, but you can't reach the highest paying markets before their value starts to decrease.

That sounds like a good candidate for an event. "The changing tastes of the elite on world X blah blah blah". You don't actually need perishables for that to work - the time pressure is provided by the event: you've got to get to market before conspicuous consumption of Volturnian Lobster falls out of fashion.


Will the new systems added actually begin to involve "Core Worlds" and whatnot? Corvus has always been the nexus of the Starsector campaign, is that going to change now?

Without getting into too much detail, it might turn out that some of the planets in Corvus have been "core worlds" all along, or at least populated. I don't know if the term "core world" can really apply to a small, hardscrabble population trying to eke out a living on the edge of disaster. Right now, there's a more continuous spectrum between "outpost" and "core world", instead of it being a binary distinction, but we'll see how that pans out.
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ciago92

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2014, 04:09:05 PM »


Something like that is actually under consideration. The details might be tricky, though. Wouldn't want permanent hostility with the Hegemony because you sold 1 unit of hand weapons to Tri Tachyon 3 cycles ago.


Counterpoint: you attacked the TT 3 cycles ago, can you now sell them hand weapons to get them off your back?

ie Diplomacy now has a sliding scale of more than {1,0,-1}={friendly, neutral, hostile}? Where you get better prices if you're higher in the friendly but they don't immediately come after you if you're slightly negative? something like poor prices through -10, then hostile below -10? where lots of sales to opposing faction is like -3 but attacking a fleet is -20 or something? details to be balanced of course
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Alex

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2014, 04:11:02 PM »

Well, yes. That's what I mean by "tricky", getting the details of that sort of thing right :)
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Cosmitz

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2014, 04:48:42 PM »

I don't know if anyone mentioned, but Alex, you might want to play Star Traders RPG on Android. It has a system almost exactly word for word what you're trying to do. They call them rumors instead of news, and you get them by visiting bars and either getting some of the free tips or paying for better ones. Some are useful, some are just yipp-yapper. They go from trade info like shortages or surplus to notices of cheaper equipment and notes of extra piracy going on in an area. You can also do normal trade without relying on rumors but it's a lot less profitable.

Thing is these rumors also affect NPCs, traders rush to fill the same shortage you are trying, the ones in the faster ships guarantee profit, but not a lot of it, while huge slow freighters will definitely bring in the money, but if the shortage ends, they end up with stuff they might sell at brake-even or loss. A surplus/shortage planet will also be more heavily pirate-camped than a non-event one.

Actually, in total retrospect, you REALLY should play it. The way everything is done, from factions wars and such, trade embargoes to fuel usage and how different cargos on your ship gave you bonuses to some actions... i'd love to see similar in StarSector.

LE: Link for conveniance, search for non-elite for the free demo: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.corytrese.games.startraderselite&hl=en
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 04:54:31 PM by Cosmitz »
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xenoargh

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2014, 04:51:20 PM »

Quote
What neutral station? Actually, it'll probably be around for the next release, but I wouldn't count on that sticking around forever.
I eliminated it from Vacuum and most people weren't all that unhappy to see it go, but that's because there aren't any serious issues with choice anxiety in the mod, other than "what pew-pew shall I use to blow things away with".

I think that the concept of off-board storage is super-important in RPGs where scarcity of things to buy / loot is a given; if there's nowhere to put that Ion Cannon you've looted and don't want to sell, it can create a bit of choice anxiety for players and that's generally not a good thing.  

I mainly skirted that issue in Vacuum by making sure that there was very little choice anxiety- pretty much anything you want, you can find it- but if I rein in the amount of goods available, then it's going to promptly rear its head again.  Anyhow, just my $0.02 on that; choice anxiety is always present in a RPG to one extent or another but this is one of the kinds that is usually more trouble than it's worth.

Quote
Also: buying 80% of a system's much-needed resources is going to cost a LOT of money, more than selling it back would gain you. And they're not going to sell you their last supplies etc. You can probably still find a way to set things up well for yourself, but if "buy stuff, sell it back" actually netted any profit at all, that'd be a broken system.
First off, I think we have a bit of confusion here; I'm not actually saying that cornering markets will be profitable or useful.  I think that's one thing that this system won't really allow for or it'll be pretty pointless, in terms of reward.
 
Sitting on the kinds of resources that will suddenly become quite valuable during Events, on the other hand, rather than wasting one's time trying to find a supply of said resource, buying it and then heading to the Event, all within the time limit... that is quite attractive as a strategy, under the system as proposed.  

However, by the time players can afford to sit on things in sufficient amounts that they can make money that way, they're doing pretty well... and if some of these things are perishable (which I think is a great idea, and it covers food, clothing, electronics and a lot of other things), that keeps it from being too easy or mega-profitable.

---------------------------------

On the relationship thing; I think it should matter, but I agree it's not simple; that said, there are ways to make it matter while telling the player what's going to happen diplomatically:

Spoiler
Tri-Tachyon Space Bazaar 'Dollar King' Blockaded by Hegemony Military

The "Dollar King" Space Bazaar in the Shale Nebula system of Hiawatha is being blockaded by the local Hegemony forces as part of an anti-piracy campaign.  Hegemony sources indicate that the "Dollar King" has been a favorite re-supply and money-laundering spot for local pirates, a charge Tri-Tachyon officials have firmly denied.  Until this crisis is over, the station's supplies of Food, Oxygen, and Military Circuitry are dwindling quickly.

Local Pirate "Red-Hand" George has said that his "brotherhood" will be attempting to smuggle goods into the station in defiance of Hegemony actions "to save this station's inhabitants from Hegemony tyranny", but has stated that "my boys will make all the deliveries; if you want to help out the station, bring the goods to us for proper processing.  People crossing the Hegemony line without our permission will be treated as hostile".

The Independent Merchant's Association has stated that it is neutral in this dispute, but will not be delivering to the area until it is resolved.

This action is not likely to result in war between the Hegemony and the Tri-Tachyon Corporation, according to sources within both camps, but it has raised the level of tension between them.  Meanwhile, the local Hegemony commander has stated that 'we will be confiscating Military Circuitry shipments and prosecuting smugglers attempting to do so with maximum force to restore order, but Food and Oxygen supplies are a low priority of our enforcement efforts'.

-----------------------------------------

Here we have:

1.  Another local Station owned by an enemy of the Hegemony offering to buy up these Supplies, at a profitable but lower price point, which will raise rep with both them and the Station effected by the Event a small amount per unit delivered.  Bucking them to sell direct to Tri-Tach will lower reputation, however.

2.  A Faction declaring its neutrality to the Event.  You cannot irk the Indies here by selling to either party.

3.  A graduated response from the Hegemony; selling the high-priority items to the Station will result in far more Reputation hit than the low-priority items.

4.  Selling to the Tri-Tachyons should result in better reputation with them but lowered relations with the Pirates, while selling to the Pirates will gain less profit but won't increase reputation with Tri-Tach.

Yeah, it's complicated-ish to implement, but it's a lot cooler than "planet X needs Rice Cakes", lol, even if a lot of it is repetitive, which it's inevitably going to be, simply because it's layered and presents players with meaningful choices, even if we leave out the possibility of helping the Hegemony enforce the blockade.

One of the things that comes out of this theoretical is that if anything but "disaster aid" type scenarios are in place, the AI fleets should be "scanning" the player's cargo if they can get close enough and acting appropriately.  Actual reputation hit should be based on activity rather than action, however; if the player has good reputation with a Faction but is carrying a proscribed resource to an Event, they might even be given the chance to bribe their way out of encounters.

Lastly, the worry about "being on bad side of Hegemony because of something done at the beginning of the game" is probably a bit over-blown; for one thing, the player can help out Hegemony later, if they haven't made them utterly hostile, fixing the reputation, and all of it should scale with units moved; i.e., a starting player can't move the bar with this stuff very far, unlike engaging in combat, which should always have pretty strong effects.  

I think a lot of the issue there is that the "anything below zero Reputation is totally hostile" system needs to get fleshed out; it really should have more gray area, where players can do things like bribe people or agree to surrender their cargos or whatnot to avoid violence.
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harperrb

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2014, 05:44:35 PM »

I know its still conceptual, but for clarity, is the intent:

A. that 'events' are the catalyst- A generated chance occurrence based on conditions that produce a change in the environment (AKA Ship Malfunctions). EVENT: Pirate Blockade - There is a 12% chance that local raiders spawn in a system, when it occurs, the planet gains the status "famished" and prices for food increase by 200%; if GatherInformation[PLAYER STAT(>= LEVEL(10))], they are notified

or

B. that 'events' are the result - Existing information produced based on activities, displayed to the player based on their GatherInformation stat. A pirate fleet leaves Pirate Base Alpha, in System Gamma, arrives at a Hegemony Planet Beta, in System Delta, existing traders are unable to land, food stores run low, prices increase; meanwhile the player in system Charlie has GatherInformation >= LEVEL (11), is notified of the Event: a Hegemony trader announces that he was run off by pirates orbiting Planet Beta in the Delta System.

tltr: So are events the catalyst or the result.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 05:53:15 PM by harperrb »
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Flare

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2014, 07:19:12 PM »

- I'm not too sure about trade being relegated to being random quests.

-If the principles of race to the bottom are in effect, will there be many more traders and freighters running around than there are now?
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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2014, 07:53:22 PM »

Here's something else I have thought about!

what about commissioned shipping? being paid to haul cargo that isn't technically yours? I'm not sure if that falls within the purvue of the economy system, or even the scope of your game, but I always though it would be great to have a contract-based shipping element.

perhaps this would fall under a faction based job or mission, and may not be planned for the economy updates, but it's something I thought about.
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Alex

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2014, 07:58:31 PM »

@Cosmitz: Yeah, this came up a couple of posts back. It's nice to get a high-level idea that someone did something similar and it worked out well, but the last thing I want to do is pore over the details and copy it.

@xenoargh: You know, that's more or less just what some of the more nuanced events in the design doc look like. It's definitely more ambitious, and besides, I just wanted to talk about something simpler in the blog post - both for clarity and to avoid over-hyping something before actually trying it.



I know its still conceptual, but for clarity, is the intent:

A. that 'events' are the catalyst- A generated chance occurrence based on conditions that produce a change in the environment (AKA Ship Malfunctions). EVENT: Pirate Blockade - There is a 12% chance that local raiders spawn in a system, when it occurs, the planet gains the status "famished" and prices for food increase by 200%; if GatherInformation[PLAYER STAT(>= LEVEL(10))], they are notified

or

B. that 'events' are the result - Existing information produced based on activities, displayed to the player based on their GatherInformation stat. A pirate fleet leaves Pirate Base Alpha, in System Gamma, arrives at a Hegemony Planet Beta, in System Delta, existing traders are unable to land, food stores run low, prices increase; meanwhile the player in system Charlie has GatherInformation >= LEVEL (11), is notified of the Event: a Hegemony trader announces that he was run off by pirates orbiting Planet Beta in the Delta System.

tltr: So are events the catalyst or the result.

It's both, though mostly A. It's A) in that events have some built-in consequences and a (possibly quite varied "script" that I don't want to call a script for that reason). But it's also B) in that there's no reason why events couldn't be triggered by existing conditions. For example, a planet that's had consistent (but slight) shortfalls in food supply might be more likely to suffer a serious event-based shortage.




- I'm not too sure about trade being relegated to being random quests.

This came up a few posts back; I don't think quests are a good analogy. It's similar on the surface, but that's really reducing it too much.


-If the principles of race to the bottom are in effect, will there be many more traders and freighters running around than there are now?

The two aren't directly related. As I mentioned a few posts back, the economy simulation mostly goes on behind the scenes. That said, there's a good possibility that freighter fleets you do see will be doing something sensible (i.e. shipping food from a world that produces it to a world that needs it), rather than something more or less random (i.e. more supplies to Sindria, its economic situation be damned.) Stuff that happens to these "representative" fleets could well propagate back into the simulation. It's just that they're not *actually* driving the economy, that wouldn't work out well. All other considerations aside (and there are many) you'd need an insane number of fleets.


what about commissioned shipping? being paid to haul cargo that isn't technically yours? I'm not sure if that falls within the purvue of the economy system, or even the scope of your game, but I always though it would be great to have a contract-based shipping element.

perhaps this would fall under a faction based job or mission, and may not be planned for the economy updates, but it's something I thought about.

Yeah - it's a neat idea, but, like you said, doesn't quite fall under the same umbrella.
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Thaago

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2014, 08:40:29 PM »

Quote
What neutral station? Actually, it'll probably be around for the next release, but I wouldn't count on that sticking around forever.
I eliminated it from Vacuum and most people weren't all that unhappy to see it go, but that's because there aren't any serious issues with choice anxiety in the mod, other than "what pew-pew shall I use to blow things away with".

I think that the concept of off-board storage is super-important in RPGs where scarcity of things to buy / loot is a given; if there's nowhere to put that Ion Cannon you've looted and don't want to sell, it can create a bit of choice anxiety for players and that's generally not a good thing.  

I mainly skirted that issue in Vacuum by making sure that there was very little choice anxiety- pretty much anything you want, you can find it- but if I rein in the amount of goods available, then it's going to promptly rear its head again.  Anyhow, just my $0.02 on that; choice anxiety is always present in a RPG to one extent or another but this is one of the kinds that is usually more trouble than it's worth.
...

I would like to see this be one of the first things that outposts allow: storing your stuff. Hollowing out an asteroid, painting it black, and stuffing it full of loot would actually be a really good way of hiding things in space (As Douglas Adams points out, space is unbelievably big). And a lot easier than building a 'mini-colony' that produces goods. Just don't tell anyone where it is...
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Steven Shi

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2014, 09:19:52 PM »

One of the best trading game I remember was Gazillionaire about 2 decades ago. It was buy-low-sell-high at its most basic but there was enough side mechanics and random encounters to keep the game from being boring.

Trading doesn't have to be boring as long as it is done well.
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Flare

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Re: On Trade Design
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2014, 09:56:36 PM »

I would like to see this be one of the first things that outposts allow: storing your stuff. Hollowing out an asteroid, painting it black, and stuffing it full of loot would actually be a really good way of hiding things in space (As Douglas Adams points out, space is unbelievably big). And a lot easier than building a 'mini-colony' that produces goods. Just don't tell anyone where it is...

I think painting an asteroid black in space might back fire on you. It might absorb much more sunlight increasing its heat signature, and including the fact that its hollow so the heat has less matter to distribute itself to, it might produce a noticeable heat signature. Leaving it looking the way it is on the outside is probably the safer thing to do.

Or if you're going for something fancy, you can always hide a base with phase inside of a large solar object, like a moon no one particularly cares about or comes close to all that often with expensive scientific equipment.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 09:59:51 PM by Flare »
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The battle station is not completely operational, shall we say.

"Now witness the firepower of this thoroughly buggy and unoperational batt... Oh, hell, you know what? Just ignore the battle station, okay?"
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