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[TJJ]

It seems to me that flat skill 'trees' tend towards having very mundane skill effects.
If you look at the skills at the moment, unless you reach the bonus thresholds (typically 5, 10, or the desired hull mod unlock rank), most of the skills aren't very exciting, or in fact worth investing into.

I feel a good skill/tech system should:
- give the player an interesting choice at every level-up
- reward the player with something meaningful & visceral
- offer something even cooler at the next level-up, to incentivise them into continuing.

Do you think a more traditional branching skill tree would better direct players into viable 'builds', and through prerequisite skills give the possibility of more powerful & exotic effects?

I'd like to reference the SOTS's (Sword of the Stars) tech tree, as an example of excellence; almost every new tech offers the player an interesting & strategically significant choice, often with real material* rewards.
*A new gun, a faster engine component, a new tactical system etc etc

[Megas]

If the "very mundane skill effects" are critical, they are worth sinking points into, provided player has enough points left.  I would put 10 in Fleet Logistics if I have enough AP/SP left.  (I do not unless I cheat and give myself a level in the upper 50's)  Aside from Logistics, +OP%, and combat speed, I put points in skills with the best perks and/or hullmods.

[Debido]

could you give an example skill tree? I know it's a lot of work but it would help immensely in conveying your idea.

[Histidine]

I don't think comparing a 4X tech tree to an RPG skill tree is particularly relevant.

[TJJ]

If the "very mundane skill effects" are critical, they are worth sinking points into, provided player has enough points left.  I would put 10 in Fleet Logistics if I have enough AP/SP left.  (I do not unless I cheat and give myself a level in the upper 50's)  Aside from Logistics, +OP%, and combat speed, I put points in skills with the best perks and/or hullmods.

- reward the player with something meaningful & visceral

+5% missile speed/rank
+10% target leading for autofiring weapons/rank
+1% flux capacity/rank
+1% flux dissipation/rank
etc etc

If I showed you 2 videos of battles, one with 100% flux capacity, the other 101% flux capacity, you'd be unable to discern which was which. (slight differences in the HUD not withstand)

What I'm suggesting is that all skill-ups should be meaningful & rewarding.

could you give an example skill tree? I know it's a lot of work but it would help immensely in conveying your idea.

Sure, here's the SOTS tech tree.

http://sots.rorschach.net/images/3/39/Techchart.jpg

Sure, it's got some boring stat-ups like Cybernetic Interfaces (+20% industrial output), or incremental stat boosts (missile, laser & armour techs), however the vast majority of them are far more visceral.
They either give you access to new weapon designs, new engine types, new ship hulls, new tactical components (shields, cloak, minefields, bio weapons, point defence).

I suppose Diablo 3 is an interesting example too.
While its skill system was much maligned for being too simplistic (to which I agree), it had the right idea about discarding the pointless 'filler' skills that dominated Diablo 2's skill tree.
e.g. levelling up your Mage's Blizzard skill from lvl 19 to lvl 20 so that your spell does 50 more damage is neither engaging, nor rewarding.

I don't think comparing a 4X tech tree to an RPG skill tree is particularly relevant.

SOTS was merely an example of a visceral advancement system; I don't think it matters if it's a character 'levelling up', or a civilization 'teching up', the need for the advancement to be engaging & rewarding transcends genre boundaries.

[Debido]

Thanks Tjj, though I meant an actual example of a tree type skill system specifically I the context of Starsector using some of the actual skills, weapons, ships etc.
 At the moment you can buy any ship or weapon as long as you have the credit. Are you suggesting that the player's ability to purchase or equip ships/weapons is locked until you've leveled up?

That could kind of work for ships, being unable to pilot ships of a certain class until you have the xp.

Would stop n00bs buying a bigger ship before they can properly handle it.

I suppose it could be done with some planning, but I would like to see industry, outposts and officers first before tweaking the skills menu.

[Gothars]

I feel a good skill/tech system should:
- give the player an interesting choice at every level-up
- reward the player with something meaningful & visceral
- offer something even cooler at the next level-up, to incentivise them into continuing.

Keep in mind that the skill tree is only half finished. I think the fundamental aptitude choice will be very meaningful, it will determine your entire game experience. And while the normal skill level steps might not be very noticeable (not accounting for unlocked hullmods!), the perks are very much so.

I agree that the tree could be bolder in places, though. It has neither negative side effects nor imposes clear limitations in ship (size, epoch) choice.

Some examples of how such "bold" skills could look like:

- Shield focus: Half all your ships' shield arcs, but increase their efficiency by ~50%.
- Rush to victory: Give CR timers to all your ships in exchange for an overall stat boost
- Cloud targeting: Every lone ship gets lowered weapon accuracy and range, but a bonus for every allied ship within a certain radius
- Simplified Ordinance: Make all guided missiles unguided but triple their ammo
- High pressure venting: Ships can vent flux while shields are active (/p-space), but lose hit points in the process

[FlashFrozen]

I think being able to skill up in an aptitude is a good step, but the skills themselves are kind of lack luster, I'm pretty sure most of us gravitate to a few selections at each startup, rarely breaking from the mold per se.
I personally would like some kinda split branch within each skill, at 5/10 you get a split choice of one or the other for example:

Ordnance expertise

Level 5 = +50% ballistic and energy projectile speed

 -25% speed but 40% increase in damage

or

-25% flux use when firing

or

+50% ballistic and energy projectile speed


like Gothars suggestions, you can have downsides so


I kinda wish for balance/ interesting decision we could have a % op skill in the combat tree instead of all stuck in the tech tree ( which makes it still very attractive with the burn speeds and 2 op increasing) skills

Something like the flat op reduction for hull mods in the tech tree/ op % increase for player ship.

Idk why but having this massive fleet wide op bonus far seems to outweigh most of the combat skills which only affect your own ship.

[xenoargh]

I think that the biggest problem is that there simply aren't enough skills that I feel like I really want, after I've settled on a build strategy and there aren't any skills that boost some of the areas that would really be cool; for example, there aren't any skills devoted entirely to boosting Fighters for a Carrier-centric build strategy.

[Debido]

I think that the biggest problem is that there simply aren't enough skills that I feel like I really want, after I've settled on a build strategy and there aren't any skills that boost some of the areas that would really be cool; for example, there aren't any skills devoted entirely to boosting Fighters for a Carrier-centric build strategy.

So we start looking at different fleet build types? So you can spec your character for Fighter/Carrier build, Frigate specialization build, Merchant build (bonus to freighter/tanker) and Battleship build?

[Talkie Toaster]

I agree that the tree could be bolder in places, though. It has neither negative side effects nor imposes clear limitations in ship (size, epoch) choice.

Some examples of how such "bold" skills could look like:

- Shield focus: Half all your ships' shield arcs, but increase their efficiency by ~50%.
- Rush to victory: Give CR timers to all your ships in exchange for an overall stat boost
- Cloud targeting: Every lone ship gets lowered weapon accuracy and range, but a bonus for every allied ship within a certain radius
- Simplified Ordinance: Make all guided missiles unguided but triple their ammo
- High pressure venting: Ships can vent flux while shields are active (/p-space), but lose hit points in the process

It seems like hull mods are the place for these tradeoffs to come in though (so you don't permanently lock yourself out of guided missiles, say) and skills already unlock hull mods. Maybe a few more dramatic hull mods could be added, maybe the 'dead levels' could be filled up, but since we're missing at least half the game it's hard to know how the skill trees will play out.

[Gothars]

It seems like hull mods are the place for these tradeoffs to come in though (so you don't permanently lock yourself out of guided missiles, say) and skills already unlock hull mods.

Why limit it to skills? Both fulfill very different roles, hullmods with tradeoffs are chosen by you to optimize a ship for its specific role in combat, skills with tradeoffs could provide an altogether new game experience and help define your character better.
I'm playing Path of Exile at the moment which sold the idea for to me, it has e.g. a skill that sets your HP to 1 and makes you completely dependent on your energy shield, or one that makes you unable to deal any damage but grants an additional totem (powerful helper). Those skills not only make you stronger, they complete change and redefine the way you play the game. I'd really love something like that for Sector, too.

[Talkie Toaster]

It seems like hull mods are the place for these tradeoffs to come in though (so you don't permanently lock yourself out of guided missiles, say) and skills already unlock hull mods.

Why limit it to skills? Both fulfill very different roles, hullmods with tradeoffs are chosen by you to optimize a ship for its specific role in combat, skills with tradeoffs could provide an altogether new game experience and help define your character better.
I'm playing Path of Exile at the moment which sold the idea for to me, it has e.g. a skill that sets your HP to 1 and makes you completely dependent on your energy shield, or one that makes you unable to deal any damage but grants an additional totem (powerful helper). Those skills not only make you stronger, they complete change and redefine the way you play the game. I'd really love something like that for Sector, too.

Right, but the problem I see with the skills having these tradeoffs is if you select them then discover they don't suit your playstyle, you're stuck with them. If you make the effect a hull mod unlocked at X skill rather than a skill perk at X skill, you have a perfect way to toggle these dramatic effects on and off if you don't like them.

[Gothars]

A limited respec option against ingame currency would solve that issue. Skills with back draws should also be at the end of their respective branch, so a player knows what he wants by the time he encounters them.

[Hopelessnoob]

A limited respec option against ingame currency would solve that issue. Skills with back draws should also be at the end of their respective branch, so a player knows what he wants by the time he encounters them.

Since alex is adding in difficulty levels why not unlimited respecs in Easy and noniron man mode and limited respects in easy/ironman mode while no respects in normal ironman mode.