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Author Topic: Gradual map borders  (Read 15524 times)

Gothars

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2013, 11:18:07 AM »

Man, you sure know how to tease. Good that I'm no cat.
Did I mention that I'm all for a split blog post? ;)



Another interesting point. These changes to battle mechanics are actually driven by the need to connect the combat and campaign layers (to enable certain top-secret campaign features), but I think we're thinking of that connection in very different ways. They really are two different games, and I think trying to make them share some surface similarities (such as relative scale, positions of things, etc) would be a mistake. Better, imo, to make the connection stronger with more core mechanics that are actually designed to work across the layers - rather than trying to make scale and positioning work in both layers.

I have to say I'm not convinced that "surface similarities" are a mistake. There are some cases were they worked very well, for example the battlefields in the total war series. They are always modeled like the campaign map, including strategic elements like hills, bridges, mountains and forests. Some elements have an important (but entirely different) function on both layers, some are just decorative on one. That the location of the battle influences it so much is great contribution both for gameplay and immersion. And besides, I see no fundamental reason why core mechanics and optic should not both transgress layers.
Ah, but this is all hypothetical.





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Cycerin

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2013, 11:19:10 AM »

Please, please tell me that the new border mechanic involves a ship activating its interplanetary engines (burn drives) and burning away if it gets the time to do it. ;D
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Alex

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2013, 11:27:36 AM »

Man, you sure know how to tease. Good that I'm no cat.
Did I mention that I'm all for a split blog post? ;)

You might have, yes :) I'm leaning towards doing that, soon.

I have to say I'm not convinced that "surface similarities" are a mistake. There are some cases were they worked very well, for example the battlefields in the total war series. They are always modeled like the campaign map, including strategic elements like hills, bridges, mountains and forests. Some elements have an important (but entirely different) function on both layers, some are just decorative on one. That the location of the battle influences it so much is great contribution both for gameplay and immersion. And besides, I see no fundamental reason why core mechanics and optic should not both transgress layers.
Ah, but this is all hypothetical.

I think "surface similarities" might haven been the exact wrong term for me to use, because I'm on board with everything you're saying here. What I meant was more like movement within battle mapping directly to movement in the campaign. Surface similarities actually seem very good - create a tie-in between the layers without mucking it up by making the mechanics have overly-direct relationships.


Please, please tell me that the new border mechanic involves a ship activating its interplanetary engines (burn drives) and burning away if it gets the time to do it. ;D

I can neither confirm nor deny whether "Make retreating ships activate fake burn drive as they get near the border? Make it faster than normal." is on my todo list.
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Gaizokubanou

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2013, 11:28:27 AM »

As to removing borders altogether, I don't think that's practical. If you consider in detail how things would play out (or, indeed, mod in a very large map for small, no-objective engagements), I think you'll start to see some of the problems. Just one example: what's likely to happen is for a few clumps of smaller combats to drift away from each other - leading to a situation where it either takes you minutes to move from one clump to another (once the battle there is finished), or to where you couldn't catch up at all due to being in a slower ship.

I actually think taking few minutes to get to different segments of battle (given that you are in something as big as cruiser) is not just ok, but essential to give depth to certain aspects of the combat, like roles of carriers and light escorts for heavier/slower ships.  Inability to catch up due to being in a slower ship also sounds great actually.

A more mechanical problem I see is... if the battles do indeed drift apart, say into 3 groups (A, B and C).
1.  The minimum distance among any group pair exceeds the retreat/end battle distance requirement.
2.  A is still on going, B and C ends with different victors for each.
Should retreat/end battle mechanic kick in and just call it the end for B and C?  I think that would be bit awkward.

A possible solution would be to have both AIs sort of gather around a single ship (flagship) as their center, but that would kill a lot of flexibility in tactics (or players abusing rally points to do maneuvers that AI can not ever due to their leash around the flagship).

Another mechanical problem is... well if the retreat mechanic works by distance between the two fleets, then a faster fleet can ALWAYS just opt out to escape from battle, leaving slower ships to collect nothing but dusts except for fighting around static locations.  We can have penalty for fleets that opt out to retreat in the first place but that would feel very "gamey" and not so intuitive to the player.  This is actually a strange problem because just straight up logically speaking, this problem isn't even a problem as it accurately depicts a problem with slower vehicles.  But then again, this is already simulated by travel speed on campaign map.

Overall, I don't see much benefits to having no border within current context of campaign.  I do see benefits that could be gained from just simply having a much larger map.  I guess I just want to see bigger maps and better working carriers/light escorts ;D
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naufrago

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2013, 03:54:00 PM »

So, I have an idea, but it would require a fair bit of work. I kind of love it, though. EDIT: The wall of text is a bit daunting, so skip to the end for the cliff notes version. Also, I spoilered the wall.

Spoiler
Pre-battle
When you bump into another fleet you are given the choice to ignore or pursue. If both parties choose ignore, combat is avoided. If either side chooses to pursue the other fleet, we head to the Deployment Phase.

Deployment Phase
All ships in both fleets start out deployed. So why call it the deployment phase? Well, you know all those objectives on the map? You and your opponent can deploy them (they would also work a bit differently, explained later). Also, during this time you can choose the individual starting positions of your ships (within a certain radius of your starting position) and where to place any System Drive Interdiction Field Generators (placeholder name, explained later, hereafter referred to as "Interdictors"), if any.

The battlefield would be borderless and the default state would be that you can engage your system drive anywhere on the field. The way the system drive would work is that you press a button- I'm thinking 'C'- to increase your speed beyond its max, and once it reaches a certain speed it leaves the battlefield (when a player hits that speed, they could get the dialog box asking if they mean to retreat). Releasing 'C' maintains your current speed, and you slow down by pressing 'S' (or 'W' if you want to slow down to your top speed). You might not want your opponent to do this (and viceversa), so that's where Interdictors come in. I'll talk more about them later, but they prevent use of the system drive within their area of effect. Also, this is a good time to explain how deployment would work. EDIT: Now that I think about it, activating system drives might not even require its own special key. Just make 'W' accelerate without limits when outside of interdictor bubbles, release 'W' when you're happy with the speed you're going.

So, both fleets start at different spots on the map, relative to their positions on the campaign screen (ie. bigger fleets start farther apart, relative positions depends on your angle of approach- you might start at the 2 or 9 o'clock position, for example EDIT: not necessary, now that I think about it). You know the area where the enemy fleet can deploy, but nothing beyond that (because fog of war). You can deploy anything (besides ships), anywhere on the map, but you'll only want to deploy them where they'd be useful. The beacons we already have work basically the same, but are instead deployed by the participants (and start out 'captured' by the deployer), they have a limited area of effect, and the bonuses don't stack if they modify the same attribute. You wouldn't want to deploy them far away where they're useless, but you wouldn't deploy them too close to the enemy because it makes them easy to capture.

Deployables can be captured (except interdictors affect friend and foe alike), but they can also be destroyed. Since your enemy can flee at any time, you may want to deploy an interdictor near them to stop them from retreating. If your enemy is focused on retreating, then at this point they have two options- get out of the interdiction bubble and engage system drives, or destroy the generator and engage system drives. Depending on where you place it, you can have their system drives be jammed and yours unjammed, but it might leave the interdictor vulnerable. (I'll talk more about deployables later, but this is just to give an idea of the tactical and strategic considerations this allows for)

Combat Phase
Combat would behave much the same way it does now. Inside the effects of interdiction, the meat of the combat is essentially the same. You can even explain the Burn Drive as being "hardened against the effects of interdiction, allowing the system drive to be engaged for short intervals under jamming." Most combat will be centered around the deployables, for the bonuses they provide and some other reasons to be explained later, but it doesn't preclude the possibility of combat outside the bubbles.

Figuring out how to handle ships entering an interdiction field is a bit tricky. They could be going extremely fast thanks to their system drive, but that could be unbalancing if they can be that fast inside the bubbles. I feel like they should quickly decelerate to some upper bound for their ship size.

The framework allows the possibility of mid-combat deployment of beacons and bubbles as well (mid-combat deployment may require a specific type of ship). You could even have a ship system that allows it to be a mobile interdictor.

Post-Combat Phase
Most of the post-combat stuff remains the same, with some differences. If you win (ie. you have at least one ship on the battlefield while your opponent has none), all deployables you have captured at the end of battle become yours. Anything you don't have captured has a chance to be sabotaged (retreating/destroyed fleet sends self-destruct signal to the deployables, you attempt to jam, could be affected by skills/hullmods). If you lose (ie. you retreat, get destroyed), you lose every deployable you deployed because you abandoned them.

There will also be no need for RNG causing ships to be disabled or destroyed post-combat because there's no need to simulate post-battle pursuit; the ships have already retreated out of range with their system drives.

Deployables
This comprises all the things you can deploy on the battlefield. You have your beacons that buff you (lots of possibilities for that) and interdictors that inhibit the use of system drives, but there's a great deal of variation you can have with that. The deployables could have greater area of effect, provide larger bonuses, be more durable, take longer to capture, or even put various debuffs on the enemy depending how much you're willing to spend (and risk when deploying them). You would have to buy or capture these if you want to deploy them, so there could be a great deal of variation in their cost and size. You could even have cheap Sensor beacons that simply give you lots of visibility, which could be important on a potentially large battlefield.

Also, just brainstorming, there could be some interaction between deployables and phase cloak invisibility. Detecting cloaked phase ships in combat could require it to be within range of one of these sensor beacons. If the deployable is cheap and light, there's no reason not to have at least one, especially with fog of war being an issue. You'll really want to defend your sensor beacons if it means you won't be able to detect phase ships without them.

To explain how things are deployed pre-battle, I imagine they're launched out just before the battle begins, they drift into position, and they stop by using maneuvering thrusters or some such, just in time for when the battle begins. It wouldn't really require a specialized ship. For mid-combat deployment, I imagine that would take specialized ships to get into position and deploy them- let's call them "Construction Rigs".

Construction Rigs would essentially be used for mid-combat adjustment of the 'terrain.' They could also be used to repair nearby friendlies if that's a possibility. Not only would they be able to fly around putting up beacons or additional interdictor bubbles, they could also un-deploy them. Maybe you decide to retreat and don't want to leave that expensive, top-tier beacon behind. Maybe you just want to pick it up and move it closer to the battle.

It should take some time to un-deploy (maybe dependent on how long it would take to capture it and how large it is). Larger deployables could require larger Construction Rigs to deploy and un-deploy mid-combat. Not sure they should be able to un-deploy interdictor bubbles mid-battle, though. At the very least, it should be a lengthy process to do so.

I like this because it explain where the hell those beacons come from in the first place while at the same time giving the player and AI the ability to shape the battlefield in interesting, meaningful ways.

EDIT: Oh, you could have some deployables be armed, even make them dedicated weapons platforms, you could set up minefields... lots of possibilities.

EDIT: Decided to flesh out my idea of deployables a bit more.

So, you could have deployables be distinct items that take up inventory space and have all their stats predetermined, or you could make them modular. You could even make them take up FP and hangar space instead of cargo space (basically, treat them like crew-less ships that can't move and can be captured mid-combat). If they're modular, they could come in small, medium, or large varieties with Main System Beacon slots for different buffs (like Sensor, Navigation, or even Interdiction). You could even have different 'hulls' within their size class that have weapon slots or maybe an extra Main System Beacon slot.

Just some stuff to think about.

System Drive Interdiction
There could be a few different types of interdictors to allow for more varied battlefields. The one I refer to throughout this post would inhibit the use of all system drive activation within a certain radius (a bubble, basically). You could also have a 'ring' type that has a wide area around it that is completely unaffected, but a small-ish ring around it far away where the interdiction occurs.

Imagine an archery target- the bullseye would be like the interdictor bubble and the outermost red ring would be like the ring interdictor. You could also have weaker interdiction that affects a larger area, but allows some use of the system drive. All are interesting ways to shape the battlefield.

As for mobile interdictors (ie. interdictor as a ship system), you could have any or all of the above, but you could additionally have a single-target interdictor.

EDIT: You could also (as a default that appears of its own accord without any deployable) make a large-ish, circular interdiction field between the two fleets that may or may not encompass both fleets' deployment zones to create a battlefield, even when neither fleet has a deployable. Could be explained away as the interaction of the fields surrounding both fleets as they clash distorts space-time and disables the use of system drives. In smaller engagements, it could easily encompass both deployment zones, but since bigger fleets start farther apart, it could necessitate the use of deployable interdictors to prevent the enemy fleet from immediately fleeing.


I tried to flesh out the idea as much as possible, but feel free to do whatever you want with this.

EDIT: I just realized I never actually said exactly what interdictors do outside of System Drive Interdiction. Derp. Fixed that and put System Drive Interdiction back where I prefer it.
[close]

EDIT: tl;dr-
The changes I'm proposing fall into 3 categories:

1) Remove borders, allow use of system drives in combat. Create 'soft' borders through mechanics that disable use of the system drive.
2) Create a new class of 'ship' called deployables (placeholder name) which act much the same way the current objectives on the map do, but re-use much of the code already in place for ships. The player and enemy AI would be the ones deploying them.
3) Create a Deployment phase where you have time to set up the positions of your fleet and deployables. Allows you to create formations and influence the 'terrain' of the battlefield.

There's also the work integrating it into the current system (relatively minor, compared to actually implementing the features), balancing everything (relatively major), and teaching the AI how to handle these things (relatively major).
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 12:16:35 PM by naufrago »
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Gaizokubanou

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2013, 04:18:03 PM »

The system drive interdiction sounds like a soft map boundary (because any combat outside of it would be completely voluntary and thus losing side should just opt out of it, hence no real combat outside of it), albeit it would be a circular shaped map.

Off topic suggestion but you probably want to explain what 'interdictors' are before going into combat phase instead of after.
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naufrago

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2013, 04:30:51 PM »

Off topic suggestion but you probably want to explain what 'interdictors' are before going into combat phase instead of after.

Valid point. Changed things a bit. I mostly just spewed out my concept in a rough structure and made sure things were readable.

The system drive interdiction sounds like a soft map boundary (because any combat outside of it would be completely voluntary and thus losing side should just opt out of it, hence no real combat outside of it), albeit it would be a circular shaped map.

While the point was to make a soft boundary, it's not necessarily a circular shaped battlefield. It would be more like one or two overlapping circles in small engagements, but larger engagements might require more varied and numerous overlapping circles. Depends on what you choose to deploy and where.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 05:06:26 PM by naufrago »
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BillyRueben

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2013, 05:40:33 PM »

...lots...
It sounds cool, but it also sounds like a LOT of work, particularly getting the AI to take advantage of the new system.
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naufrago

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2013, 05:41:48 PM »

...lots...
It sounds cool, but it also sounds like a LOT of work, particularly getting the AI to take advantage of the new system.

I did say it would take a fair bit of work. =p But since he's looking at the issue with borders, I figure it couldn't hurt to throw some ideas out there.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 05:52:44 PM by naufrago »
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naufrago

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2013, 12:00:06 PM »

I try to avoid double posting, but I just want to point out that I made some edits to my big post that should make it more... to the point.

EDIT: Figured I'd include this here so you don't have to scroll up to see the important change-

tl;dr:
The changes I'm proposing fall into 3 categories:

1) Remove borders, allow use of system drives in combat. Create 'soft' borders through mechanics that disable use of the system drive.
2) Create a new class of 'ship' called deployables (placeholder name) which act much the same way the current objectives on the map do, but re-use much of the code already in place for ships. The player and enemy AI would be the ones deploying them.
3) Create a Deployment phase where you have time to set up the positions of your fleet and deployables. Allows you to create formations and influence the 'terrain' of the battlefield.

There's also the work integrating it into the current system (relatively minor, compared to actually implementing the features), balancing everything (relatively major), and teaching the AI how to handle these things (relatively major).
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 12:02:17 PM by naufrago »
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Gothars

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2013, 12:28:00 PM »

Uh, just to be sure you know, the talk about borderless maps was very much hypothetical. The question was if a borderless system in general could a) work and b) be better than a map with borders. (The answer to me was that the question is interesting, which is one of my favorite kinds of answers. Another good answer is "I'd hoped you'd ask that" because something interesting happens next every time, but I digress.)

So, since Alex is in the process of revising maps with borders, borderless maps are certainly not an option. I for one will hold any suggestion until I learn what is planned from the upcoming blog post.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 12:38:08 PM by Gothars »
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naufrago

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2013, 01:02:02 PM »

Well, since it's purely hypothetical, there's no harm in talking about it. =)

While I mention 'borderless', I bet my suggestion would also work fine on a map with borders if the area is sufficiently large. It would just work better without hard borders, and avoids the issue of being cornered in space.

EDIT: Well, to continue the discussion, I'll point out how my it answers a few questions and solves a few issues. Why can't I set up formations? Why can I only come in from one side? Where do these sensor beacons and nav buoys come from? Why can only certain ships activate their system drive, and only for a limited time? Those things simply don't make sense. There are probably ways to explain it away with lore that don't require any extra mechanics, though.

The game simulates several different things with its mechanics, like a larger fleet being able to deploy more of its fleet initially, but for some reason not all of it. Post-battle pursuit is simulated once everything has retreated, which leads to random losses. You don't need to simulate these things if they're played out on the battlefield. It's no longer a question of what to deploy (why deploy a freighter and risk losing it?), but of where to deploy it and how to use it... Although, that's not exactly an issue with borders. I'm probably taking things a bit off topic, actually.

If it's down to technical limitations or time constraints (or simply being not within the designer's vision for the game), I have no problem with my suggestion being ignored entirely. But keep it in mind for Starsector 2 ;D
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 01:19:38 PM by naufrago »
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Alex

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2013, 02:30:25 PM »

Just a very quick note: always being able to deploy every ship in the fleets at once is not an option for performance-related reasons. And that's before you consider how big the fleets in some mods get.
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naufrago

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2013, 03:24:19 PM »

I think I vaguely recall you saying something like that before somewhere and it just slipped my mind. Well that's a shame. As long as piecemeal deployment is a thing, there will always be at least a little awkwardness. In light of technical limitations, though, I don't really see other ways to improve the current system without introducing other forms of awkwardness. I'll think about it.

Also, if I may pry a bit, could you point out what the bottleneck is? Graphics card memory, CPU cycles spent on AI, collision detection, all the independently aimed and rendered turrets...? Just to satisfy my curiosity really. I'm probably making unfair comparisons to AI War in my mind. (Although, this is question is off topic enough I might take it to that thread titled "A Few Starfarer Dev Questions")
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 05:01:02 PM by naufrago »
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Alex

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2013, 07:37:19 PM »

Also, if I may pry a bit, could you point out what the bottleneck is? Graphics card memory, CPU cycles spent on AI, collision detection, all the independently aimed and rendered turrets...? Just to satisfy my curiosity really. I'm probably making unfair comparisons to AI War in my mind. (Although, this is question is off topic enough I might take it to that thread titled "A Few Starfarer Dev Questions")

A little of this, a little of that - it's pretty well distributed between the various items, as I've already spent some time eliminating the more obvious bottlenecks. Graphics usually aren't the bottleneck for large battles, though, because a lot of stuff is off-screen then, and doesn't need rendering (but still needs everything else).

A high-end machine could handle a huge battle without too much trouble - but if you don't have any kind of mechanic in place for gradual deployment, you're shutting the door on lower-end machines, and limiting what mods can do in term of fleet size.

Also, I'm not entirely certain that having a huge battle happening off-screen has that much relative value to it. It's always a tradeoff - you could instead spend those cycles making what the player actually sees and interacts with better.

And yeah, looking at some screenshots of AI War (but without having played the game), a ship-for-ship comparison would indeed seem rather unfair :)
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