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Author Topic: Don't nerf SO  (Read 8549 times)

Killer of Fate

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2024, 02:03:07 AM »

If something is blatantly stronger than everything else to the point you're gimping yourself by not using it, then I think we should rebalance it. I'm not sure if SO is there yet but I can't deny certain ships are straight up much better with it and certain ships are bad without it.
I blame s-mods. SO is probably perfectly balanced. Same as Phase Anchor. It's just that certain things are built around being OP-restricted. And if you remove OP restrictions, then there is no longer anything restricting them.
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Siffrin

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2024, 03:32:13 AM »

If something is blatantly stronger than everything else to the point you're gimping yourself by not using it, then I think we should rebalance it. I'm not sure if SO is there yet but I can't deny certain ships are straight up much better with it and certain ships are bad without it.
Except it isn't blatantly stronger than everything else and even if it was SO is so boring and one-dimensional that most players will just seek out new playstyles themselves after the 50th full assault and AFK battle.
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Princess of Evil

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2024, 03:41:41 AM »

Playing a SO fleet is like making a dish out of just potatoes. It works, and it's kinda nice, but it's not long before you realize you want to add other things to it. Maybe a nice armored capital to run to if things get too dicey. Maybe some non-SO ships that can provide a bit of sustain against frigates. Maybe a carrier or two just to waste some DP and because your Onslaught looked lonely.
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Popel

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2024, 03:57:00 AM »

So by removing SO, game would open doors to balance ships that relay on it in a way, that they wouldn't have stictly ONE build only (not only ships but weapons too)?
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2024, 04:00:09 AM »

So by removing SO, game would open doors to balance ships that relay on it in a way, that they wouldn't have stictly ONE build only (not only ships but weapons too)?
or just cause these ships to never ever have any niche or build complexity ever again unless other buffs were done. Which we could do anyway to simply raise their competence as non-SO ships. For example by giving Chaingun 600 range
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Princess of Evil

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2024, 04:02:36 AM »

Nothing stops Alex from buffing them anyway, due to how self-contained SO is.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2024, 05:32:29 AM »

If something is blatantly stronger than everything else to the point you're gimping yourself by not using it, then I think we should rebalance it. I'm not sure if SO is there yet but I can't deny certain ships are straight up much better with it and certain ships are bad without it.

By that metric, Dedicated Targeting Core and Integrated Targeting Unit (ITU) also fall into that category, no?  Is there a more impactful hullmod for capital class ships?  Is a capital with ITU straight up better with it and without such a hullmod pretty bad?  Is it wrong to design entire ship classes around the hullmod (or vice versa)?  If safety overrides is removed, doesn't that mean every cruiser should have ITU instead?  How about expanded missile racks on missile heavy ships?  How about phase ships and either Adaptive Phase Coils or Phase Anchor?  Those two are so strong, you're prevented from taking them together.  Do people typically build phase ships without either of them? 

So I don't think a ship that is designed to work with a particular "optional" hullmod is necessarily a bad thing.

I'm vaguely curious as to why people call safety overrides boring.  As a player, a lot more thought has to go into positioning and retreat timing on a safety override Medusa than, say, piloting a slow long range ship that is part of a battle line.  I would only imagine its boring if you're fighting sufficiently weaker opposition.  I can't think of any fights I typically do where I can AFK because I'm using a safety overrided player ship, for example.  You can AFK missile fleets and slow long range fleets when they sufficiently overpower the opposition as well.

At the end of the day, given combat in the game is a race to see who can reduce the otherside to zero hull first, ships can be boiled down to 4 different metrics: speed, range, damage output, damage absorption.

Speed and range are typically inverse to each other.  Longer range ships are slower.  Similarly, damage output and long term damage absorption (i.e. flux cycle) is also typically better on shorter ranged ships.

So there's a continuum from long range and slow capitals to short range safety override frigates.  While one can argue about where current numbers land, by eliminating safety overrides completely, you are reducing the build space.  Suddenly Pathers play like the Luddic Church, which reduces the enemy fleet variety.   Yes, we can buff ships like the Fury if you take away safety Overrides, but what would such a buffed Fury play like?  Would they play like already existing ships?  Does it play more like an Eagle or maybe Plasma Cannon Champion?  In a safety override-less world you have to put ITU on it like those ships if you want to be competitive.  So more of a medium range somewhat fast ship instead of a short range really fast ship, in a game that already has somewhat fast and medium range or average speed long range ships.  You can't just make the Fury a lot faster (like base 120), because it has access to ITU, so the build space is restricted.

So I'd much rather have numbers tweaked a little if things are too strong, rather than completely chopping off a section of the ship variety parameter space by removal.  "Berserker" ships with short PPT, so they need to play really aggressively, is definitely a different archetype from long range line ships, or medium range skirmisher ships, and certainly feels different to fight against.
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Spyro

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2024, 05:45:34 AM »

All that is nice and cool but does any other hullmod remove so many game mechanics and pigeonhole a ship into one and only viable setup? ITU ships don't have exact same weapons as each other, EMR doesn't dictate what missiles you will use.

SO ships will on other hand always use Chainguns, Machineguns and Heavy Blasters if it's a high tech ship.

There's also the fact that it removes venting, zero flux boost is ALWAYS on, and you honestly violate the flux stats with how much disippation was given carefully to each ship by the dev. Leaving you with a cookie cutter close range build that only needs to worry about positioning and not getting to 100% flux. Literally hold W and kill stuff.

Is it less boring than a pure missile spam fleet, yeah it is since you actually get to see the enemy fire their guns at you. But it's still incredibly one dimensional.
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Princess of Evil

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2024, 06:06:28 AM »

SO ships will on other hand always use Chainguns, Machineguns and Heavy Blasters if it's a high tech ship.
Three guns is pushing it, my SO builds are usually 90% ACGs.

There's also the fact that it removes venting, zero flux boost is ALWAYS on, and you honestly violate the flux stats with how much disippation was given carefully to each ship by the dev. Leaving you with a cookie cutter close range build that only needs to worry about positioning and not getting to 100% flux. Literally hold W and kill stuff.

Is it less boring than a pure missile spam fleet, yeah it is since you actually get to see the enemy fire their guns at you. But it's still incredibly one dimensional.
Protip: abusing your +*60* speed to flank a huge*** shield is incredibly effective.
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Megas

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2024, 06:24:14 AM »

I use SO on ships if the AI does better with it.  Fury is unable to disengage from enemies quickly enough without it and gets killed.  Hyperion wastes too much time backpedaling because AI refuses to teleport to escape and is surprisingly slow if not using the teleporter, and slow means more backpedaling.  Hyperion really needs more base PPT if it still has Delicate Machinery to burn its CR fast.  I use SO on Wolf sometimes because they hit-and-run better and waste less time disengaging and more time attacking.

I almost never use SO on the ship I pilot because I cannot drop shields with the vent button.  Would have been nice if vent button dropped shields but did not vent if ship is not allowed to vent.
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Cryovolcanic

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2024, 07:15:20 AM »

All that is nice and cool but does any other hullmod remove so many game mechanics and pigeonhole a ship into one and only viable setup? ITU ships don't have exact same weapons as each other, EMR doesn't dictate what missiles you will use.

SO ships will on other hand always use Chainguns, Machineguns and Heavy Blasters if it's a high tech ship.

There's also the fact that it removes venting, zero flux boost is ALWAYS on, and you honestly violate the flux stats with how much disippation was given carefully to each ship by the dev. Leaving you with a cookie cutter close range build that only needs to worry about positioning and not getting to 100% flux. Literally hold W and kill stuff.

Is it less boring than a pure missile spam fleet, yeah it is since you actually get to see the enemy fire their guns at you. But it's still incredibly one dimensional.

If you don't like it, don't use it?

Nobody is forcing you to use missile spam or SO fleets. If you want to use a Scintilla Flash/tac laser fleet to farm 4x Ordos, in this single player game that you can mod in any direction you want, go for it.

If I have fun playing SO ships, why are you taking my choices away from me?

And I'll quote Vanshilar here, to this date not a single person has demonstrated that SO fleets outperform conventional long-range ballistic/missile fleets against endgame enemies. People simply say that

1) SO is overpowered (without showing any evidence)
2) SO is boring (fun and boring are subjective)
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Spyro

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2024, 07:25:13 AM »

Alright so if I stand outside and see someone beating the hell out of a child, would your suggestion be "Just don't look at it."?

Ladies and gentlemen we have wasted 40 years of balancing video games, when instead we could've just told people not to use overpowered and underpowered items. Why even participate in discussions with that logic man...

EDIT:
Quote
1) SO is overpowered (without showing any evidence)
Literally fire up sim and test Aurora or Fury. Instant evidence.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2024, 07:26:58 AM by Spyro »
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prav

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2024, 07:28:56 AM »

SO must be nerfed so these poor children will stop getting beaten.
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Thogapotomus

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2024, 07:51:54 AM »

The beatings will cease once moral improves.

Seriously though, its just not good gameplay. Doesn't mean I haven't had fun with it, but it being optional doesn't mean its an ok design. I think it also disproportionately hurts new players. Relying on SO while learning the game doesn't allow you to accurately appreciate the power of skills or the complexity of designing a ship. Plus it just doesn't make ANY sense in universe. Most fights aren't too long and it seems crazy that other people/factions wouldn't use a simple hull mod that triples a ship's effectiveness. Especially in a life or death situation where they can't save scum.
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THE SHAMBLER

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Re: Don't nerf SO
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2024, 08:56:54 AM »

Maybe just so everyone is happy add "ill advised modifications" debuff as long as the ship has SO, and maybe buff the combat skill that lowers malfunction chance so making a SO fleet is more viable with the skill. This would nerf SO but not remove it, and you can still use it as your main straigth if you build around the malfunction chance debuff.
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