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[Killer of Fate]

Just wanted to say, about the Graviton specifically, I totally understand where the feeling that it doesn't do much comes from, but I also couldn't disagree more. I did some pretty extensive testing with various Eagle loadouts and a triple Graviton was one of the most effective ones I'd found. IIRC it was that plus ... either 3x Heavy AC or 2x HAC 1x Mauler; I don't remember all the details.

The flux pressure is kind of invisible, but it's really solid and it matters. It just looks like the enemy ship fluxing itself out from firing, but what you're really seeing there is the effect of graviton pressure. And now that it gives a 10% shield damage bonus (for 3 beams), it's even indirectly contributing a fair chunk of hard flux damage.

And on top of that, it gives the highly visible effect of deflecting torpedoes and the like. Which, sure, is very situational, but quite a difference-maker when it happens.

true, but this is actually one of the reasons why I want to nerf/buff = rework it.

Graviton Beam isn't underpowered per say... Okay, granted, I did say it seems to do nothing. But mostly it's frustrating. First of all, 1000 range beams cause ships to act cowardly from my experience. If you equip them with Autocannons, Arbalests, Heavy Mortars. They might feel content firing at Beam range. This forces players to run into ultra aggressive tactics or use Heavy Mauler and Velociraptor, which are already overpowered extremely generalist weapons for most of the Midline and even Low Tech arsenal.

ps. edit that was how i felt some time ago, so maybe I'm misremembering or this has been fixed somehow

Generally long-range playstyle is extremely boring. And difficult to play against. As a lot of ships are simply too slow to catch up with the enemy. And Something like a Hammerhead or even a Lasher in the sim for a proper scale will just run away indefinitely making the player feel cheated out of a proper combat engagement.

Admittedly, that's just the logic of the game. But by changing how beam weapons work, the Eagle will no longer be forced into a boring or extremely risky playstyle due to the nature of beams. And instead it will be half-encouraged to engage into more spread out builds... Admittedly this could probably make other energy weapons feel underpowered. This is why it would throw a wrecking ball into the other game's designs and force major reworks upon reworks to its aspects.

Also, I have to say that although the Graviton pushing effect is very creative, it is extremely frustrating to play against. It simply causes high investment powerful strategies to no longer apply, as there is generally just nothing you can do about it. A Graviton Beam is just a permanent stain on your ship and if you launch something towards the Eagle, it jus might get randomly pushed aside or not. Who knows? Fighters also have this issue, making Graviton again a better weapon at taking down missiles and fighters than Heavy Burst. Unless we are talking actual shooting down of missiles instantaneously or whatever... If this buff were applied, this mechanic would be removed to compensate and lesser player frustration...

[Thaago]

Anecdote: Recently when running through the tutorial, the wolf I could grab at the ship graveyard had the flux D mod and the range D mod (and engines? Don't remember, but it was a nasty set). Then the only weapons available to equip were mining blaster or graviton in the medium, and the only smalls were pd lasers or a single tac laser. I ended up going graviton, tac laser, 2x pd, and linked swarmer+salamander, but I wasn't happy about it and assumed it would be a mostly-useless ship.

It ended up doing fine vs pirates. Slightly low DP numbers, and a distinct lack of kill power when alone, but the thing never got in trouble ever and was more reliable as a flanking wing-ship than a normal pulse laser variant. I'm not sure I'd call graviton + 1 tac a good wolf build, but it wasn't nearly as bad as I expected.

[PixiCode]

Anecdote: Recently when running through the tutorial, the wolf I could grab at the ship graveyard had the flux D mod and the range D mod (and engines? Don't remember, but it was a nasty set). Then the only weapons available to equip were mining blaster or graviton in the medium, and the only smalls were pd lasers or a single tac laser. I ended up going graviton, tac laser, 2x pd, and linked swarmer+salamander, but I wasn't happy about it and assumed it would be a mostly-useless ship.

It ended up doing fine vs pirates. Slightly low DP numbers, and a distinct lack of kill power when alone, but the thing never got in trouble ever and was more reliable as a flanking wing-ship than a normal pulse laser variant. I'm not sure I'd call graviton + 1 tac a good wolf build, but it wasn't nearly as bad as I expected.

Oh man, graviton tac laser wolf was my very first combat ship! I remember it. I was so terrified of short range anything so I always leaned towards the longest range everything.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Just wanted to say, about the Graviton specifically, I totally understand where the feeling that it doesn't do much comes from, but I also couldn't disagree more. I did some pretty extensive testing with various Eagle loadouts and a triple Graviton was one of the most effective ones I'd found. IIRC it was that plus ... either 3x Heavy AC or 2x HAC 1x Mauler; I don't remember all the details.

The flux pressure is kind of invisible, but it's really solid and it matters. It just looks like the enemy ship fluxing itself out from firing, but what you're really seeing there is the effect of graviton pressure. And now that it gives a 10% shield damage bonus (for 3 beams), it's even indirectly contributing a fair chunk of hard flux damage.

And on top of that, it gives the highly visible effect of deflecting torpedoes and the like. Which, sure, is very situational, but quite a difference-maker when it happens.

The basic problem is it's 9 OP. For 10 you can get a Pulse laser, a Phase Lance, and a Mining Blaster. While all of them are shorter range, they are also far more useful. The exception is where you have an overabundance of OP, medium energy mounts, and not enough dissipation to cover anti-shield weapons.
27 OP for a 10% damage increase just isn't enough to justify the low DPS/OP of the Graviton with the exception of certain niches as I mentioned above.
If I were to recommend a change, give it a flat 2.5% increase to shield damage for each GB hitting the shield, up to 20% or 8 beams. No ship in the game can get the maximum bonus as such it has to be used in a fleet where Gravitons are in common use on support ships. 4 Beams would get the current 10% which is the maximum for the High-Tech Capitals without downgrading Large Mounts.
This combined with a reduction in HSA OP would allow for more generalized use.

[BigBrainEnergy]

I think most of these weapons are fine, honestly. Setting aside pd beams I'd only suggest that the Ion beam could stand to be a little more affordable. Other than that, I'm happy where beam weapons are.

[prav]

The flux pressure is kind of invisible, but it's really solid and it matters.

Perhaps beam soft flux could be displayed differently? Make it red or dashed or something like that. Just to help keep track of what's doing what.

[PixiCode]

Not a bad idea in concept Prav. I think that could actually have potential for interesting interactions in the future. Soft flux, Hot flux and Hard flux. Hot flux being any non-hard flux gained from external sources.

[Doctorhealsgood]

Just wanted to say, about the Graviton specifically, I totally understand where the feeling that it doesn't do much comes from, but I also couldn't disagree more. I did some pretty extensive testing with various Eagle loadouts and a triple Graviton was one of the most effective ones I'd found. IIRC it was that plus ... either 3x Heavy AC or 2x HAC 1x Mauler; I don't remember all the details.

The flux pressure is kind of invisible, but it's really solid and it matters. It just looks like the enemy ship fluxing itself out from firing, but what you're really seeing there is the effect of graviton pressure. And now that it gives a 10% shield damage bonus (for 3 beams), it's even indirectly contributing a fair chunk of hard flux damage.

And on top of that, it gives the highly visible effect of deflecting torpedoes and the like. Which, sure, is very situational, but quite a difference-maker when it happens.

true, but this is actually one of the reasons why I want to nerf/buff = rework it.

Graviton Beam isn't underpowered per say... Okay, granted, I did say it seems to do nothing. But mostly it's frustrating. First of all, 1000 range beams cause ships to act cowardly from my experience. If you equip them with Autocannons, Arbalests, Heavy Mortars. They might feel content firing at Beam range. This forces players to run into ultra aggressive tactics or use Heavy Mauler and Velociraptor, which are already overpowered extremely generalist weapons for most of the Midline and even Low Tech arsenal.

ps. edit that was how i felt some time ago, so maybe I'm misremembering or this has been fixed somehow

Generally long-range playstyle is extremely boring. And difficult to play against. As a lot of ships are simply too slow to catch up with the enemy. And Something like a Hammerhead or even a Lasher in the sim for a proper scale will just run away indefinitely making the player feel cheated out of a proper combat engagement.

Admittedly, that's just the logic of the game. But by changing how beam weapons work, the Eagle will no longer be forced into a boring or extremely risky playstyle due to the nature of beams. And instead it will be half-encouraged to engage into more spread out builds... Admittedly this could probably make other energy weapons feel underpowered. This is why it would throw a wrecking ball into the other game's designs and force major reworks upon reworks to its aspects.

Also, I have to say that although the Graviton pushing effect is very creative, it is extremely frustrating to play against. It simply causes high investment powerful strategies to no longer apply, as there is generally just nothing you can do about it. A Graviton Beam is just a permanent stain on your ship and if you launch something towards the Eagle, it jus might get randomly pushed aside or not. Who knows? Fighters also have this issue, making Graviton again a better weapon at taking down missiles and fighters than Heavy Burst. Unless we are talking actual shooting down of missiles instantaneously or whatever... If this buff were applied, this mechanic would be removed to compensate and lesser player frustration...

Aren't aggressive officers going to try to get in range of all their guns?

[Megas]

27 OP for a 10% damage increase just isn't enough to justify the low DPS/OP of the Graviton with the exception of certain niches as I mentioned above.
If I were to recommend a change, give it a flat 2.5% increase to shield damage for each GB hitting the shield, up to 20% or 8 beams. No ship in the game can get the maximum bonus as such it has to be used in a fleet where Gravitons are in common use on support ships. 4 Beams would get the current 10% which is the maximum for the High-Tech Capitals without downgrading Large Mounts.
This combined with a reduction in HSA OP would allow for more generalized use.

I rather take 5% for one beam and 10% for three as done now.  With this flat 2% per beam, I probably would throw away what few Graviton Beams I use except on HSA builds (where it hits for hard flux) and use IR Autolances instead.  Currently, when given the choice between Graviton and IRAL, the choice is usually IR AL (though I may use one Graviton on a few ships for the extra shield damage).  For mass Graviton to be attractive, it has to be at least as attractive than stacking a ton of IR ALs and frying anything with exposed hull.  IR AL is cheaper than Graviton Beam.

Although, eight Gravitons would not be hard to achieve for ships with lots of missile mounts for Gazers, like Aurora or Legion.  Fill every missile slot with Gazers, link them, and fire the whole salvo at an enemy.

Would not mind Graviton Beam being lowered to 8 OP to match IR Autolance (which is one reason why I replace most Graviton Beams with IR Autolances the moment I find that blueprint [often raided from Pirates]).  Maybe make High Scatter Amplifier a little cheaper too.  Then the cost Graviton Beam as a 600 range hard flux weapon may be more tolerable.  (It costs too much OP for one Graviton and HSA.)

[Killer of Fate]

Just wanted to say, about the Graviton specifically, I totally understand where the feeling that it doesn't do much comes from, but I also couldn't disagree more. I did some pretty extensive testing with various Eagle loadouts and a triple Graviton was one of the most effective ones I'd found. IIRC it was that plus ... either 3x Heavy AC or 2x HAC 1x Mauler; I don't remember all the details.

The flux pressure is kind of invisible, but it's really solid and it matters. It just looks like the enemy ship fluxing itself out from firing, but what you're really seeing there is the effect of graviton pressure. And now that it gives a 10% shield damage bonus (for 3 beams), it's even indirectly contributing a fair chunk of hard flux damage.

And on top of that, it gives the highly visible effect of deflecting torpedoes and the like. Which, sure, is very situational, but quite a difference-maker when it happens.

true, but this is actually one of the reasons why I want to nerf/buff = rework it.

Graviton Beam isn't underpowered per say... Okay, granted, I did say it seems to do nothing. But mostly it's frustrating. First of all, 1000 range beams cause ships to act cowardly from my experience. If you equip them with Autocannons, Arbalests, Heavy Mortars. They might feel content firing at Beam range. This forces players to run into ultra aggressive tactics or use Heavy Mauler and Velociraptor, which are already overpowered extremely generalist weapons for most of the Midline and even Low Tech arsenal.

ps. edit that was how i felt some time ago, so maybe I'm misremembering or this has been fixed somehow

Generally long-range playstyle is extremely boring. And difficult to play against. As a lot of ships are simply too slow to catch up with the enemy. And Something like a Hammerhead or even a Lasher in the sim for a proper scale will just run away indefinitely making the player feel cheated out of a proper combat engagement.

Admittedly, that's just the logic of the game. But by changing how beam weapons work, the Eagle will no longer be forced into a boring or extremely risky playstyle due to the nature of beams. And instead it will be half-encouraged to engage into more spread out builds... Admittedly this could probably make other energy weapons feel underpowered. This is why it would throw a wrecking ball into the other game's designs and force major reworks upon reworks to its aspects.

Also, I have to say that although the Graviton pushing effect is very creative, it is extremely frustrating to play against. It simply causes high investment powerful strategies to no longer apply, as there is generally just nothing you can do about it. A Graviton Beam is just a permanent stain on your ship and if you launch something towards the Eagle, it jus might get randomly pushed aside or not. Who knows? Fighters also have this issue, making Graviton again a better weapon at taking down missiles and fighters than Heavy Burst. Unless we are talking actual shooting down of missiles instantaneously or whatever... If this buff were applied, this mechanic would be removed to compensate and lesser player frustration...

Aren't aggressive officers going to try to get in range of all their guns?

yeah, I might've been wrong, or it could be some complicated fleet behaviour. I'll keep an eye out.

Spoiler

[close]

[bowman]

I think beams are fine balance-wise but I avoid them like the plague because I also think they're incredibly boring- not because of their visuals or anything but because of their baseline function as a weapon type and how it interacts with the mechanics of the game's combat. The way combat in this game works, beams are simply a direct flux war with the opposing ship such that whoever has the better flux pool wins. This is generally true for all weapons (in a broad way) but because beams deal consistent soft flux in sub-second ticks with no burst or anything (for the most part, obviously phase lance and tachyon lance exist but they're outliers in the "beam" weapon-space) you tend to see ships slooowly get their flux maxed out and then flounder around as they try to get out of range to vent but can't because they're too slow without 0-flux speed and can't drop their shield or their armor/hull starts getting stripped in much the same slow, methodical way, as their flux capacity was. This gets exacerbated when you build fleets around it which is what I really hate- both seeing and fighting. In some ways, beams have similar issues to fighters in that because they have so much range and are hitscan their ability to be combined across multiple vessels means you can absolutely ruin even much larger ships' fighting capability with sufficient spam of beams with relatively little risk.

I don't think anything really needs to be done about them aside from ensuring they're never the optimal strategy simply because the game's combat is best when ships are firing punchy hard-flux dealing projectiles around rather than effectively hooking their reactors together and seeing whose is stronger.

[Brainwright]

I think beams are fine balance-wise but I avoid them like the plague because I also think they're incredibly boring- not because of their visuals or anything but because of their baseline function as a weapon type and how it interacts with the mechanics of the game's combat. The way combat in this game works, beams are simply a direct flux war with the opposing ship such that whoever has the better flux pool wins. This is generally true for all weapons (in a broad way) but because beams deal consistent soft flux in sub-second ticks with no burst or anything (for the most part, obviously phase lance and tachyon lance exist but they're outliers in the "beam" weapon-space) you tend to see ships slooowly get their flux maxed out and then flounder around as they try to get out of range to vent but can't because they're too slow without 0-flux speed and can't drop their shield or their armor/hull starts getting stripped in much the same slow, methodical way, as their flux capacity was. This gets exacerbated when you build fleets around it which is what I really hate- both seeing and fighting. In some ways, beams have similar issues to fighters in that because they have so much range and are hitscan their ability to be combined across multiple vessels means you can absolutely ruin even much larger ships' fighting capability with sufficient spam of beams with relatively little risk.

I don't think anything really needs to be done about them aside from ensuring they're never the optimal strategy simply because the game's combat is best when ships are firing punchy hard-flux dealing projectiles around rather than effectively hooking their reactors together and seeing whose is stronger.

In single combat, yeah.  This is absolutely true.  I can make beam variants of several ships that will always win the flux war against others of their class unless they have a forward boost ability.

In fleet combat, these ships can operate fairly effectively on their own.  They can either bully weaker ships or trap a near-peer threats indefinitely, and they are inherently ranged builds, so they don't overextend and die.

Fitting an ion beam into a configuration like this can be devastating.  I regularly do it with Eagle, and they can effectively cripple any ship in combat, and I don't have to add extra vents to compensate. 

I don't see a lot of people making midline or high-tech endurance ships, going for big blasty stuff that has an immediate, obvious effect.  It's a waste given how much of Starsector is fleet combat.

[Salter]

I do feel Beams are a little lackluster but only because they (a) are constant but dont do much beyond secondary effects like graviton/emp or (b) are burst oriented like the Tachyon Lance or the Phase Lance and thus only contribute when off cool-down.

Paladin PD is also really lackluster. Ive never found a use for the Paladin PD system outside of the rare anti-fighter Paragon, where you probably want those large turret mounts for tachyon lances anyways because the doughnut I feel is going to want to field smaller PD and auxiliary carriers/ships to cover its fighter issues.

The small burst laser is good, but the large one consumes more flux for more damage and there arent alot of ships which are going to give their medium slot to a heavy burst laser, not to mention the 100 range increase compared to the smaller version. The problem with the heavy burst laser is more pronounced especially in bounty/endgame fleets, where you want the ability to duel enemy fleets who frequently outnumber you with anti-ship weapons. The Heavy Burst just does not serve a good function in play. Yes, it can overkill fighters and missiles, but there are other better positioned weapons that can achieve similar results (Such as the Paladin PD or IR autolance)

Short and Long Range PD laser is consistent but doesnt do nearly enough even when massed to deal with fighter swarms. The mining laser is economic and I feel it fits the role it was designed for perfectly (Almost no cost to mount, *** but it keeps the AI from going schizo due to a lack of PD).

I feel like the IR autolance is supposed to be the compromise to a weaker beam with a secondary effect and the stronger burst weapons. The problem I feel is that its not strong enough and should inflict hard flux. Its not enough that it does bonus damage to the hull or that it can double over as anti-fighter PD, which is nice, but there are other things flying around besides fighters (Missles, other ships, etc)

If I had a wishlist for Laser upgrades come christmas, it would probably be:

• Buff Short & Long Range PD laser damage.
• Give the heavy burst laser more range and charges, but keep the current flux efficiency & OP cost.
• IR autolance should inflict hard flux.
• Give Paladin PD more range and charges.
• Make AI smart enough to not shoot HIL at enemies with shields up, or make them more flux efficient, one of the two.

In general this seems like a wishlist to buff laser PD in general, but I feel PD in general needs to be buffed up in terms of effect and range. I dont really see too many problems with graviton and ion beam. They serve niche purposes that are noticeable when massed or utilized properly and the burst laser weapons (Tachyon Lance and Phase Lance specifically) are fine as is. Its really just about giving laser that middle-ground in terms of being able to fight shields without being a burst weapon. Low-tech gets such variety of weapons (Anti-armor, anti-shield & anti-hull) weapons at relatively low flux cost efficiency. It would make sense that High-tech should get a similar array of an arsenal, minus the flux-efficient part.

[Doctorhealsgood]

But the IR autolance isn't supposed to be used against shields...

[Salter]

But the IR autolance isn't supposed to be used against shields...

One of my more recent fleets I was using it on a falcon with 2 HVD's. With integrated targeting unit and both generally having the same range, the AI will keep its shields up so long as its getting lanced, making it easier to pop its shields, so its doing something.