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[SCC]

A player-controlled Doom is probably the easiest way to get rid of an enemy Radiant.

I misread this as "the fastest way" and went to check how quickly does a player Radiant deal with enemy Radiants - I forgot Radiants are so skittish, even without Systems Expertise. Strongly discouraging the enemy from withdrawing with this one simple trick that Tri-Tachyon doesn't want you to know about truly is great. Actually, let me check it how my 2 Radiant fleet fares when going for a Doom - Radiant neural link combo...
That said, Ziggurat's probably still faster and easier.

[Thaago]

As I play more with Harbinger/phase and have moved onto Ordos, I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how well a flagship Harbinger with some AI afflictors counters radiants. It's still a powerful ship, but once it gets quantum disruptor-ed once it often struggles to get its shield back up to cover all its sides at once, and phase ships are fast enough to not really care about it trying to run away with the phase skimmer.

Plus I imagine the alpha core AI going "whaaaattt?!?" every time that it starts to initiate a skim and I go "nope!".

[Killer of Fate]

And! If you max out the skills on the Doom, it'll actually beat the (unofficered) Radiant 1v1 with close to full hull remaining! Which, not a fair fight, but it would lose before the change. This may affect a few other things, though, have to keep an eye on all the various ship behaviors for a while.

light needlers that good?

Oh, wait... Unofficered Radiant probably isn't even that deadly... Actually. It dies to two Herons with Warthogs. Funnily enough... Hmmmmmmmm... Yeah, that is weird.

[Thaago]

A single light needler on a phase anchor ship has about 500 real space dps when cycling properly (before skills etc). The AI tends to not do that but it is still a heck of a lot of shield damage.

I am just now incorporating an AI Doom into my high tech fleet and so far I am not satisfied with its performance, but very early days for figuring out a build and how to order it. It is an entirely different beast than the Harbinger/Afflictor as it really doesn't have speed or phase endurance as its upkeep is so massive, but at the same time its offense and mines are just amazing.

[Vanshilar]

I misread this as "the fastest way" and went to check how quickly does a player Radiant deal with enemy Radiants - I forgot Radiants are so skittish, even without Systems Expertise. Strongly discouraging the enemy from withdrawing with this one simple trick that Tri-Tachyon doesn't want you to know about truly is great. Actually, let me check it how my 2 Radiant fleet fares when going for a Doom - Radiant neural link combo...
That said, Ziggurat's probably still faster and easier.

Well, it kind of is the fastest way too. It's not really about preventing the Radiant from jumping away. It simply never gets the chance since it dies before that happens. At least thus far I've never had it jump away.

I haven't really tried the Ziggurat that much so I don't really know how to use it the most effectively. That's why I'm reserving judgment on that. But if it takes any longer than around 2-3 seconds to kill a Radiant, then the Doom has it beat.

[Thaago]

Would you share your Doom build/strategy for popping one in 2/3 seconds? Mine is doing better with some tweaking but still nowhere near that fast.

[Vanshilar]

Would you share your Doom build/strategy for popping one in 2/3 seconds? Mine is doing better with some tweaking but still nowhere near that fast.

It's just your generic burst spam. In this case Doom with 8 linked Antimatter Blasters. I have elite Energy Weapon Mastery which provides a healthy boost to damage since this is a lot of burst flux used, so I get a spike in my damage bonus whenever I shoot. Phase Anchor obviously to dissipate that flux when you phase again, and to shorten the cooldown. I think key is having Automated Repair, because then it doesn't matter if your weapons get disabled during the brief time when you're unphased; they'll get repaired in about the same time your AM Blasters get off cooldown, and there's no way your weapons will be disabled as you unphase to fire, so you know you'll get all your shots off. I'm still playing around with the build, but right now I use Escort Package since I'm around Conquests, for more speed and range. Max flux capacity of course.

I usually aim for the Radiant's nose, so that no matter what main weaponry it has, it all gets disabled by the first burst. It dies on the second burst. Doesn't matter if it's all Tachyon or all Autopulse or all Plasma Cannons or whatever. It doesn't do that much damage in the brief moment that I unphase for my first burst, and its weapons are still disabled when I unphase for my second burst. So it neutralizes the Radiants as a threat to the fleet as well. I just need to make sure I put some mines on the other side so that their shields face the wrong way when I fire.

Radiants die in 2 bursts. Brilliants die in 1 burst. Novae die in 1 burst if I can hit their side or back, but the problem is that they do prioritize facing me with their shields, so typically it ends up me maneuvering to have them face me while the Conquests kill them from the side/back. Apexes are actually the most troublesome since they have front shields and they also prioritize facing me. They usually take 2.5 bursts, i.e. one burst to make them overload, one burst to take them down to around 1/3 health, and then one more -- either from me mining nearby fighters or from the Conquests, etc. -- to finish them off. SO Apexes are a danger (since they could get away from the fleet) so I usually use mines to stop them from getting away, if the Gryphons aren't doing their job. In this case the mines really are used to corral them back to the rest of the fleet.

Attached is an example of the Radiant's health after the first burst. I've completely stripped its nose armor, disabled all its nose weapons, and taken it down to around 60% or so hull. That's just on the first burst. The second burst is stronger because I'll have built up some hard flux while phased, so the second burst will finish it off. This is on an Alpha Core Radiant (I've never seen Radiants nor Novae with anything except an Alpha Core) so this is through its Impact Mitigation, Damage Control, and Polarized Armor.

For burst damage, 8 AM Blasters is 8*1400 = 11200 damage, at 1400 hit strength. Then you consider Energy Weapon Mastery (usually +15% to +30%), Tactical Drills (+5%), 100% CR (+10%), Cybernetic Augmentation (+14%), then Target Analysis (+20% multiplicative with all that), and probably a couple of other things that I'm forgetting. It basically ends up as "a lot of damage". That's why I can two-shot Radiants and one-shot Brilliants (and one-shot Novae if I get lucky).

I mentioned before that the change to how the enemy AI deploys the enemy fleet will actually likely make them easier, and this is such an example. In the past, the enemy AI started with a mixed fleet, then as you kill those ships, it'll stream in little ships, then bigger ships until it gets to Novae and Radiants. So the player fleet had to be able to defeat 3 very different types of fleets: 1) a mixed fleet, 2) a fleet made up of a bunch of little ships that can surround you and pick off your ships if you let any of your ships get surrounded, and 3) a fleet made up of fewer stronger big ships that can brute force punch through your fleet if you don't have good enough defenses. And the latter is when your fleet has likely already expended all its burst weaponry such as Harpoons.

The change to have the enemy AI deploy ships as a mixed fleet all the way through -- sometimes deploy bigger ships, sometimes deploy smaller ships, etc. -- means that each ship in the player's fleet can now specialize toward the different types of enemy ships. This makes it easier to destroy the enemy fleet.

For the Doom, it's very strong against the Radiant and the Brilliant. It's strong but wasteful against all the frigates and destroyers (it can kill them with its AM Blaster burst but that's overkill and it only has 20 bursts for the whole fight, so it's better to try to use mines and/or have the other ships kill them instead), and it's relatively weak against the Nova and the Apex. It's also very strong against the Scintilla i.e. fighters due to its mines.

In the last version, this meant that the Doom would be useful at the beginning for the mixed fleet, then could be used but sort of wasteful while the enemy AI is sending out all the little ships, then very strong against Brilliants but there will be too many at once (so it can't leverage its strength against all of them) so some of them will inevitably have to be taken by the rest of the fleet, then relatively useless when the enemy AI sends out Apexes, then relatively useless when the enemy AI sends out Novae, then very strong when the enemy AI sends out Radiants at the end. So it'll be very strong at some points and relatively weak during other points in the battle.

In the current version, there will nearly always be fighters around, and/or Brilliants, and/or Radiants, basically something that the Doom is strong at. So the player can just go after whatever target the Doom is strong at that's in front of him, and let the rest of the fleet pick apart the other ships. So it's much stronger in this version than the last version, due to the AI deployment logic which has nothing to do with the Doom itself.

Sadly, the AI-controlled Doom can't really pull this off. Or it could but the problem is that it doesn't really commit to this. It knows enough to throw mines on the other side, but it'll just unphase in front of the Radiant, take some shots while standing there, *then* fire some AM Blasters, at which point some of its AM Blasters are already disabled and the Radiant is already switching its shields back to face the Doom. For me, I line up the shot while phased, and am holding down the "fire" button as I unphase to fire as soon as possible, and then phase again as soon as I see the phase coils turn off. So this is something that has to be done by the player for maximum effectiveness.

[Beep Boop]

I run something similar, although with slightly fewer blasters, and run with Jackhamsters for the same role instead. This lets me have enough spike damage to delete Radiants in ONE volley, while being able to use blasters against smaller targets without the massive overkill of firing 8 at once.

[SCC]

In this case Doom with 8 linked Antimatter Blasters.

I don't usually specialise my ships, so I didn't expect this. My Doom would look more like this.

I wonder, what's the rest of your fleet? I don't like using Phase Anchor, because speed is king, and since your loadout works, I assume you have something else taking the heat for you for majority of the fight. It's hard to get close to a Radiant and not the entire enemy fleet.

I usually aim for the Radiant's nose, so that no matter what main weaponry it has, it all gets disabled by the first burst. It dies on the second burst. Doesn't matter if it's all Tachyon or all Autopulse or all Plasma Cannons or whatever. It doesn't do that much damage in the brief moment that I unphase for my first burst, and its weapons are still disabled when I unphase for my second burst. So it neutralizes the Radiants as a threat to the fleet as well. I just need to make sure I put some mines on the other side so that their shields face the wrong way when I fire.

This is somewhat similar to my tactic when soloing. The trouble is, in a fleet setting I'm constantly putting out fires, so I don't have the time to bait enemy ships.

Novae die in 1 burst if I can hit their side or back, but the problem is that they do prioritize facing me with their shields, so typically it ends up me maneuvering to have them face me while the Conquests kill them from the side/back.

There is a safe circle around a Nova that prevents mines from spawning too close. But when it uses the orion drive, it conveniently moves quickly forwards, which moves it into space where you just a second earlier you could place as many mines as you wish. So when you see Nova (about to) use its drive, you should choose one of its sides, predict where it will be after using its drive, then spam mines at the predicted location of the Nova's side. If the Nova is rotating while bursting, it might slam into the mines sideways. Otherwise, it will merely move very close to the mines, enough they are almost touching, while simultaneously almost certainly not having strong enough PD cover to neutralise them. Using 6 mines, you should be able to remove about 40% of the Nova's HP bar. Then you do it again (Nova will fall for it again). https://www.youtube.com/live/OK0ez0iPjHs?si=leIpe0TFBDr95MF2&t=265

Apexes are actually the most troublesome since they have front shields and they also prioritize facing me.

Same as Nova, spawn mines on the sides. It's less reliable, though, because of Apex's terminator drones. It's good enough to be worth doing, as far as I am concerned. Even if you don't blow it up, sometimes you disable the engines and that's also pretty good, since Apex will have some velocity and you can place mines in its path, ready for slamming into.

So the player fleet had to be able to defeat 3 very different types of fleets: 1) a mixed fleet, 2) a fleet made up of a bunch of little ships that can surround you and pick off your ships if you let any of your ships get surrounded, and 3) a fleet made up of fewer stronger big ships that can brute force punch through your fleet if you don't have good enough defenses.

uhhhh this is how it still is for me. I get 2-3 caps at the start, then they come back at the end of the fight, with the early middle part being a swarm of small ships and the late middle part is Apex spam. Granted, I base this only on my experience of fighting 2 or more ordos and maybe it's different for human ships, but you are also talking about ordos.

And because Mikohime Java upgrade mod has this pop-up commandline video up at all times, I accidentally closed it before making an after-combat save and lost a battle summary...

[Vanshilar]

I run something similar, although with slightly fewer blasters, and run with Jackhamsters for the same role instead. This lets me have enough spike damage to delete Radiants in ONE volley, while being able to use blasters against smaller targets without the massive overkill of firing 8 at once.

Yeah I'm still trying out different things. There's some "leftover OP" that I can mess around with, so it's a matter of what I want to do with it. Right now it's Escort Package, but I could put in Unstable Injector, or missiles, or other stuff. I'll have to mess around with that (or Typhoon or other missiles) and see what seems to work.

I wonder, what's the rest of your fleet? I don't like using Phase Anchor, because speed is king, and since your loadout works, I assume you have something else taking the heat for you for majority of the fight. It's hard to get close to a Radiant and not the entire enemy fleet.

It's mostly the usual Conquests and Gryphons, but I'm also experimenting with a couple of other ships to fill out the fleet. They don't take the heat, they're just there to fling stuff every which way. The fleet doesn't take much damage; the ratio of damage dealt to damage received is around 12:1 or so. So there's actually no traditional tank nor fleet anchor since it's not needed. The Conquests are the closest thing there is to a tank or an anchor, since I have them in the middle (with Gryphons on the flanks) and I'll duck behind them sometimes to vent.

There is a safe circle around a Nova that prevents mines from spawning too close. But when it uses the orion drive, it conveniently moves quickly forwards, which moves it into space where you just a second earlier you could place as many mines as you wish. So when you see Nova (about to) use its drive, you should choose one of its sides, predict where it will be after using its drive, then spam mines at the predicted location of the Nova's side. If the Nova is rotating while bursting, it might slam into the mines sideways.

That's interesting, I'll have to try it out when I get a chance. Realistically usually (other than the very beginning) I won't have a full complement of mines, because I'm constantly using (and misusing) them on trying to kill fighters and ships and whatnot. I also use the mines to change the shield direction of enemy ships that my ships are targeting as well, especially if they're spamming Harpoons, to make them more effective. So I don't really have that many mines to use. But another tool in the toolbox.

Same as Nova, spawn mines on the sides. It's less reliable, though, because of Apex's terminator drones. It's good enough to be worth doing, as far as I am concerned. Even if you don't blow it up, sometimes you disable the engines and that's also pretty good, since Apex will have some velocity and you can place mines in its path, ready for slamming into.

Yeah the Apex's terminator drones will usually be a target for mines. It's more that the Apexes are not easy kills the way Radiants and Brilliants are.

uhhhh this is how it still is for me. I get 2-3 caps at the start, then they come back at the end of the fight, with the early middle part being a swarm of small ships and the late middle part is Apex spam. Granted, I base this only on my experience of fighting 2 or more ordos and maybe it's different for human ships, but you are also talking about ordos.

I *think* there is still some bias towards smaller ships when deploying, but it's a lot more random now. I *think* it also has something to do with how quickly you're killing enemy ships, since the enemy AI will deploy new ships only every so often. So if there's a lot of DP to replace then it'll more likely deploy bigger ships, but if there's not that much DP that it can put in, then it'll put in smaller ships instead. I'm not sure. I've definitely had some fights where the capital ships have all deployed around halfway through which made the end sort of anticlimactic.

I'm only doing double Ordos though which means 2 Radiants and 2 Novae, and usually 2 of them will deploy at the very beginning, so it's not really that long of a fight to really gauge how the AI is deploying the ships. But the Doom generally has something to do most of the time for me.

[Thaago]

Would you share your Doom build/strategy for popping one in 2/3 seconds? Mine is doing better with some tweaking but still nowhere near that fast.

It's just your generic burst spam. In this case Doom with 8 linked Antimatter Blasters.
...

Sadly, the AI-controlled Doom can't really pull this off. Or it could but the problem is that it doesn't really commit to this. It knows enough to throw mines on the other side, but it'll just unphase in front of the Radiant, take some shots while standing there, *then* fire some AM Blasters, at which point some of its AM Blasters are already disabled and the Radiant is already switching its shields back to face the Doom. For me, I line up the shot while phased, and am holding down the "fire" button as I unphase to fire as soon as possible, and then phase again as soon as I see the phase coils turn off. So this is something that has to be done by the player for maximum effectiveness.

Thanks for all the details! I feel embarrassed: I haven't even tried AMB's on it yet! I've had so much success with phase lances + phase anchor on the Harbinger (AI and player) and mixing AMBs and light needlers on the Afflictor (for AI use) that I immediately went for 4x light needlers + phase lances + burst pd (for linking) and then iterated on that. I thought it would be too slow to effectively get into range of AMB's, but I'll have to give it a shot. Currently letting the AI pilot it, maybe I'll swap into it myself.

I'm guessing this is 2 bursts with shields NOT in the way, pulled off to the rear via mines? I'm stoked to hear that the AI will do the same thing, I was afraid that would be player only. In terms of getting the AI to fire the AMBs right away, have you tried including a PD weapon in the same group? That's what I do with AI afflictors to get them to fire their AMBs early and often, and because its a PD group it will correctly use autofire aiming on a per-weapon basis instead of the janky "manual fire" linked firing. (I'm including expanded magazines on AI afflictor for AMB shots, so it makes mounting a single burst pd laser decent at taking out missiles and fighters, really helps the AI behavior and gets it to get kills.)

I wonder if with an Afflictor entropy amplifying the 8x burst would one shot a Radiant... might not be enough.

It does sound from your description of behavior that the needler/lance build is better vs smaller ships than the full burst amb build, if for range and ammo than for anything else. They don't need the huge 8x damage spike after all. I wonder if some sort of hybrid would work, maybe put 2 mining lasers on the back for group linking, replace the front small turrets with AMBs while keeping the mediums as lances, replace 2 of the light needlers... I'll really have to see just how good the AI is at shield bypassing with the doom to see if losing the needlers is worth it.

[Beep Boop]

Yeah the Apex's terminator drones will usually be a target for mines. It's more that the Apexes are not easy kills the way Radiants and Brilliants are.

Of the Remnant ships you can fight in a Doom, the Apex is easily the most annoying, yes. It's fast enough that it can often move away from being mined, and tough enough to eat up quite a few mines even if it doesn't. If you want to hit with a mine, it's best to plant them right on the sides where the shield ends, so it has to turn to face one of the mine groups, and thus stop moving as much, but you're still mostly just doing chip damage to it rather than causing serious pain. Thus, mines are not terribly effective vs. an Apex. For this, you'll want the old-fashioned overfly method where you just fly right through it and over, then immediately fire into its back as you pass over. The 4 AMBs on the side of the Doom will fire backwards for this purpose. This is a bit too close for comfort, but the Apex is probably not going to explode on you instantly. That said, Apexes are also not the highest threat opponents to the rest of your fleet, either, so it may often be the case the that the rest of your fleet can handle it.

[Vanshilar]

I'm guessing this is 2 bursts with shields NOT in the way, pulled off to the rear via mines? I'm stoked to hear that the AI will do the same thing, I was afraid that would be player only. In terms of getting the AI to fire the AMBs right away, have you tried including a PD weapon in the same group?

Yes it's with using mines to redirect the shields first.

Oh good call on adding a PD weapon to the weapon group! Testing in sim, with 8 AM Blasters + 1 Mining Laser on a back turret linked to same weapon group, the AI will correctly put mines on the other side of the Radiant, unphase to unload its AM Blasters, then phase a second later. It's still not as perfect as the player (namely, I phase right away after I fire the AM Blasters to minimize damage taken, whereas it seems like the AI hangs around for a second or two before phasing -- but that may be because the AI is purposely designed to not have "perfect" timing), but it's pretty good. I think I'd still pilot the Doom myself because I get to select the target the Doom goes after and I can use mines to help out the rest of the fleet, but I think this will make the Doom "pretty good" for AI use.

I wonder if with an Afflictor entropy amplifying the 8x burst would one shot a Radiant... might not be enough.

It might, because the 2nd burst is a bit of overkill; the first burst takes out something like 3400 armor along with something like 8000 hull (estimating on both of these), so you don't really need a full second burst. However, it's fast enough to just wait a few seconds in phase then unphase so it doesn't really make a difference I think for the second burst.

It does sound from your description of behavior that the needler/lance build is better vs smaller ships than the full burst amb build, if for range and ammo than for anything else. They don't need the huge 8x damage spike after all. I wonder if some sort of hybrid would work, maybe put 2 mining lasers on the back for group linking, replace the front small turrets with AMBs while keeping the mediums as lances, replace 2 of the light needlers... I'll really have to see just how good the AI is at shield bypassing with the doom to see if losing the needlers is worth it.

Well I will generally rely on the mines to bypass the shields, hence no need for anti-shield i.e. Needlers. It does make the Doom more of a one-trick pony though which makes it weaker against front-shield ships like the Apex. If need be each AM Blaster does do 1400 damage per shot compared with the Light Needler's 1500 damage (to shields) per burst, albeit at less range and much more flux.

Using 2 Phase Lances and 6 AM Blasters does sound interesting, because I can use the Phase Lances at longer range, and it allows me to pick off weak or weakened targets without having to close in all the way. For example, it'll be useful during the beginning when there are stray frigates that I could kill easily with a couple of Phase Lances, when right now I'm burning through a bunch of mines or relying on the rest of the fleet to take care of them. (Those initial frigates are very wasteful because my fleet will launch their Harpoon spam against them.) It'll also be useful against ships like Fulgents which have multiple Phase Lances; those Phase Lances hurt a lot if I unphase to go after them with AM Blasters, but I would be out of their range if I use Phase Lances myself. Also, I sometimes screw up and one or a couple of the AM Blaster shots get blocked by fighters or something, resulting in the target having just a bit of hull left, so being able to use Phase Lances as I'm backing off to finish the target off would help.

Phase Lance vs AM Blaster is an interesting tradeoff. Phase Lance is 600 range base, becoming 930-1050 with ITU, GI, and Escort Package (no room for Advanced Optics), compared with AM Blaster which is 400 range base, becoming 620-700. Phase Lance is 1250 soft flux damage at 500 hit strength whereas AM Blaster is 1400 hard flux damage at 1400 hit strength. So I lose a bit of damage at full power, but make up for it by being more versatile at hitting different targets and being able to finish off and pick off targets at greater range. Seems like it'd be worth trying.

Thus, mines are not terribly effective vs. an Apex. For this, you'll want the old-fashioned overfly method where you just fly right through it and over, then immediately fire into its back as you pass over.

Oh yeah I sometimes do just overfly Apexes (or Novae) and hit them from the back. I have to phase for quite some time though since I'm using Phase Anchor not Adaptive Phase Coils, so I run the risk of running out of flux. When I do so I go ahead and turn around to face them directly rather than trying to hit them behind me. Another risk is that this often puts me between them and other enemy ships, so I have to really make sure I can kill them or I won't be able to get away. It seems like Phase Anchor is more meant to be used in close range with a non-phase ship while Adaptive Phase Coils is more for if I'm just running around on my own, so I have to stay closer to the rest of my fleet with Phase Anchor.

[intrinsic_parity]

I normally use phase lance on Doom. The potential DPS is very impressive with phase lance. You get to shoot a lot more often compared to AMB, and more targets are available due to longer range as well.

I do like needlers, but I feel like having 2 with phase anchor is already enough. I usually have 2x needlers, 2 amb and 2 phase lance. I tend to pop in and out of phase repeatedly rather than trying to one-shot things, but with phase anchor, phase lances and needlers are ready to fire again VERY quickly, so this works quite well in my experience. I believe the 2x cooldown reduction from phase anchor happens in phase time, so it is effectively 6x cooldown reduction in combat time, which makes for quite absurd DPS potential. 

I do 'waste' the small energy turrets with burst PD just to make my life easier by not having to think about missiles, so that could be more optimal from a DPS standpoint, but IMO the limiting factor for doom damage output is not the weapons but rather the positioning/opportunities available.

The only place I have real trouble with player piloted doom is against Persian league max level bounties. DEM spam is a PITA to deal with in a phase ship. A pegasus with 4x hydra and missile skills is neigh unapproachable. Maybe the pure alpha strike load out would be better in that situation.... hmmmm. HIL and tach lance are also quite annoying, but are nowhere near as spammy.

[Thaago]

... I tend to pop in and out of phase repeatedly rather than trying to one-shot things, but with phase anchor, phase lances and needlers are ready to fire again VERY quickly, so this works quite well in my experience. I believe the 2x cooldown reduction from phase anchor happens in phase time, so it is effectively 6x cooldown reduction in combat time, which makes for quite absurd DPS potential. 
...

I think you're right on the 6x effective cooldown reduction, and on the Harbinger triple lances is just brutally strong. I need to raise up a specialty ballistic officer to check, but I might try to make a "ballistic support" Afflictor with 4x light needlers. About 2k kinetic DPS before skills if it phase cycles optimally (which it won't, but hey I want to try it out and see how it does!).

... I do 'waste' the small energy turrets with burst PD just to make my life easier by not having to think about missiles, so that could be more optimal from a DPS standpoint, but IMO the limiting factor for doom damage output is not the weapons but rather the positioning/opportunities available. ...

I do the same with my Harbinger. I could have better phase endurance by putting the 12 points into caps and a better pilot than me probably doesn't need them, but the convenience of being able to unphase to pop harpoons and fighters is just nice.

DEM fleet was such a pain, agreed! Honestly harder than an Ordo with a phase-heavy fleet, even with alpha cores.