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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: New music for Galatia Academy (06/12/24)

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Author Topic: L/M Missile in 0.97  (Read 1008 times)

Cryovolcanic

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L/M Missile in 0.97
« on: April 29, 2024, 06:30:25 PM »

With Squall, Locust, Cyclone Reaper, PCL, and Missile Spec all nerfed, how are you using L and M missiles now? How bad do the nerfs feel to you, now that the patch has been out for a while?

I prefer Locust on the Executor now, over Squall. I like base Legion slightly more than XIV now (dual Mjolnir), although I'm sure Draba's build with XIV Legion + Reapers probably still crushes 3 Ordos with ease.

I have not tried Gryphon at all in this version. Is the Squall+linked build still good?

And any impact from the improved Salamanders?
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Vanshilar

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2024, 08:07:17 PM »

Eh Squalls still work well, the Squall nerf had barely any effect; I'm not really seeing any changes in the Squall hit rate (number of hits / number of shots fired) in 0.97a compared with in 0.96a. On the other hand, my fleet (flagship Onslaught / 3 Conquests / 2 Gryphons) has so much firepower that enemies are overwhelmed anyway. The Squall HP nerf (from 300 HP to 150 HP) might have affected fleets that didn't have much in the way of long-range missiles, but when there are 5 Squalls firing into the enemy fleet, along with a bunch of Locusts and Harpoons, their PD is going to be saturated anyway so it doesn't really affect things. This fleet is somehow even stronger now than in 0.96a (I suspect due to the AI deployment order change), and I'm now playtesting a fleet that's even stronger.

For the Executor, it depends on your weapon mix, but if you're going for dual HIL with IR Autolances, you already have anti-armor and anti-hull covered, so it's anti-shield that you need more of. So dual Squalls still work well for that.

Gryphons with linked Squall + 2 Harpoon Pods + 3 Harpoons with HVD still works. The main difference now is that it's actually slightly stronger initially, due to the change in Missile Autoforge, but runs out of ammo much more quickly. So previously it was good for up to around 3 Ordos without Systems Expertise, and good for up to around 5 Ordos with Systems Expertise. Nowadays, with Systems Expertise, this loadout is good for up to double Ordos and basically runs out of Harpoons after that (although the Squall and HVD continue for a long time after that). So spamming Gryphons is still good for most content, unless you're purposely going after multi-Ordos fights.

Legion XIV with dual Cyclones work really well as the player flagship; I tried that for a while using DTA and 4 Daggers, with the Daggers taking care of most smaller threats, and the Cyclones killing off the big ships. Sadly I suck at aiming Cyclones, with a hit rate of only around 60% or so, so a lot of their potential is wasted. But someone who's better at aiming them can probably get a lot more mileage out of that. I also tried regular Legion with dual Hephaestus (Mjolnir burned too much flux, especially when the mediums and smalls were filled with kinetic so the larges could specialize in anti-armor/shield more), but I tended to overflux too much (or too aggressive about diving in, take your pick). But it seems like it could be good as well.
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Thaago

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2024, 10:02:24 PM »

My current legion is kind of a low-level, bash what weapons I have to see if it works, but I'm running 2x Heph, 3x HAC, 2x Reaper, 2x Sarissa, 2x Xyphos (I have ballstic mastery and ordinance already, but not missile, so decided to run more guns). It works well enough.
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Amoebka

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2024, 10:04:44 PM »

Gryphon is still "good", because the sheer volume of harpoons overpowers anything even without squalls. Ammo lasts half as long though, which puts a severe limit on the sizes of fleets they can take. Converted hangar nerfs are a big hit as well. Gorgons instead of breaches are theoretically an improvement, but not a noticeable one.
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Thaago

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2024, 10:43:51 PM »

Converted Hangar nerfs? My thread on CH didn't get much traction, but I don't think it got nerfed in its effects, only in its price (DP!). Before endgame, I consider it a top tier hullmod still and even in endgame its probably worth it for come ship/fighter combos.
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Amoebka

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2024, 11:10:38 PM »

Yeah, DP is like the most important stat for lategame, especially for spam monofleets that want critical mass. For ships that had OP to spare on the old penalty (including Gryphon) it's a nerf.
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ubernoob

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2024, 12:32:56 AM »

PCL nerf + Missile spec RPM reduction knocked it out of practicality imo, unless you're running into specific enemies like Ziggy or Persean League where AoE PD makes a big difference, I do swap into PCLs then. I prefer Annihilators now for HE DPS and suppression or using Harpoons or torps.

Swarmers got hit hard and interceptor spam is better for distraction/shot blocking, I prefer having fighters do their job and use Squalls in Large Missile slots. Still good vs frigates and fighters but it has lost it's teeth versus cruisers and capitals.

Sabots are still meta and are practically unaffected by the nerfs, Harpoons are still very good and I use these regularly. Squalls are still excellent but the Missile Spec RPM nerf did reduce their volume. The nerfs didn't affect it's intended role but there's counterplay in heavy PD or armor/hull tanking, good change. Gryphons w/ linked Squall+Harpoon are still excellent.

Stopped using Hurricane MIRVs altogether since the submunition reduction to 7, they're a little too easy to dodge right now and directly compete with torpedoes in function. Much preferred their old behavior and stats in 0.95 as a net of 9x500 HE, hard to land all hits but near impossible to completely negate. Wish we could choose missile behavior for MIRVs.

Cyclone Reapers (L reaper) got nerfed the hardest but they're still good, ammo capacity is a problem in 1000DP+ slogs so you need to be mindful of ammo even with Missile Spec + EMR.

Typhoon Reapers (M reaper) still great, going from 7 to 6 missiles doesn't affect it much. Great early game on Vigilances and Shrikes and a decent choice for lategame ships.


Oh right, Salamanders, they're great on ships that have missile slots but can't practically use anything else (due to low ammo capacity or OP budget being used elsewhere). At 3/8 OP for S/M variants it's nice to add as spam to warships alongside dedicated missile spammers.

Interestingly enough, the ammo regen from the Elite Missile Spec is a great buff for Pilums and [SUPER REDACTED] missiles. I'm liking them a lot more this update,
Spoiler
Rift Torpedoes in particular are monstrous with the buff.
[close]


And by the virtue of not getting nerfed, Gorgons and Dragonfires are decent. Still don't like Gazers.

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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2024, 12:55:38 AM »

Large missiles were very good but you had to pay for it: elite MS, EMR, in most cases also ECCM. Now you still pay all that(and it's harder than before because of changes to Officer Training) but you get... something comparable to ballistics?

although I'm sure Draba's build with XIV Legion + Reapers probably still crushes 3 Ordos with ease.

RoF bonus from MS decresed from 50% to 25%
RoF of Cyclone decreased from 6/min to 4/min

As always, I'll believe it when I see it.
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Genir

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2024, 02:56:11 AM »

With Squall, Locust, Cyclone Reaper, PCL, and Missile Spec all nerfed, how are you using L and M missiles now?

I'm probably the exception here, but I don't use missiles at all. Not with how AI uses them anyway. Better to use OP for other things, like better shields, more maneuverability, etc.
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Sandor057

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2024, 03:52:11 AM »

For large slots I tend to go with Squalls and some Locusts. The former is still good enough, while the latter is excellent for PD suppression giving better chances for bigger missiles to go through.
For medium slots I either use Reapers as finishers or Gazers/Gorgons for sustained annoyance. Pilum was my go to "I've got a medium missile slot but no OP to meaningfully fit it out with" choice, but for a while now they feel extremely underwhelming, even massed.

And while technically not a missile slot, but most carriers I use have Daggers or Longbows on them with their Atropi and Sabots respectively making up a good part of the damage my fleet does.
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prav

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2024, 04:00:55 AM »

Cyclone was good before the buffs, still good after they got (mostly) rolled back. Although I still do disagree with the ammo nerf.
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Megas

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2024, 06:31:49 AM »

Quote
I have not tried Gryphon at all in this version. Is the Squall+linked build still good?
With only one or maybe two in the fleet?  Only against targets with no PD.  Anything with decent PD will stop about a third to half of the Squalls.  Lone Gryphon may not be able to punch up by about 10 DP against an enemy that can shoot down too many Squalls.  Maybe it still works well enough if several Gryphons are on the field, but I have not tried Gryphon spam in 0.97.

Cyclone seems like it was nerfed too much for its OP cost.  Now, I generally use MIRVs or Pilum Catapult in large slots, rarely others.  I probably prefer normal Legion over Legion XIV after the large missile nerf because normal Legion has bigger guns.

For medium synergy mounts, I have leaned toward IR Autolance instead of missiles.  IR Autolance is light enough on flux use that is feels more like a regenerating missile that happens to be hitscan and ignores PD instead of the typical energy flux hog.
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Princess_of_Evil

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2024, 06:49:30 AM »

The only reason why Small missiles aren't hurting is cause it's just difficult to put on less than one Reaper, imo.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2024, 01:20:22 PM »

Typhoon, Sabot with missile specialisation still rock. Typhoon especially if you are focused around light energy damage and EMP. Large missiles I don't know. But I do keep getting killed by the stupid *** DEM missiles, so I assume these are strong if spammed. If it comes to other large, Squall kinda works. But even with missile specialisation they often fail to achieve anything and then run out. But that could be just the Astral being too slow.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 01:22:43 PM by Killer of Fate »
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Thaago

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Re: L/M Missile in 0.97
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2024, 02:26:34 PM »

Squalls only work if they are paired with something else to punish whatever is being fired at immediately. Any time whatsoever for the enemy to retreat, vent, and reset means they've regenerated all the damage they did (and they do less hull damage now). Thats why the Gryphon build linking Harpoons and Squalls are so deadly. For an Executor, that's the HILs/IR Autolances, as long as the Squalls don't stop the target getting in range in the first place. Or just have gunships rushing forward to be the punishers as the missiles fly overhead from another source.

I like a Squall and a Locust linked together (as in 1 fire group, linked mode) for ships with 2 large missiles - there are a ton of benefits. The Locust provides "chaff" at different angles than straight in and helps a lot more Squalls get through. The different angles confuses the enemy AI and stops it dodging the Locusts as effectively! The Locust does hull damage, especially to smaller targets but also large targets who've taken armor hits. The combo fires more often, as the Locust has more ammo. At the same time it fires at longer range thanks to the Squall, but the Locust can reach (it has longer practical range than its autofire range logic).

Squall + MIRV linked also works quite well, but is more spiky. The firing cycle isn't as nicely synchronized as the locust + squall so there will be annoying times when the MIRV fires alone.

For small missiles: Missile Autoloader on the right ships is a game-changer! Omens got a huge buff out of this, especially as they have built in ECCM. For that ship really pick whatever missile you want and just enjoy the triple/quadruple ammo (officers are going to go system expertise on an omen). The old classic reaper omen goes from 1 shot to 4, and atropos from 2 to 6. Centurions as well and even Shepherd can gain some support missile abilities (a Shep with this has its drones and 9 harpoons/6 atropos for 3 DP. That's not amazing but its also really not bad!).

For Eagles/Falcons/other 2 slot cruiser (can't think of any off the top of my head but there are probs some) it is an option that boosts the missiles enough for them to be worthwhile. Goes from 4 to 14 atropos on the ship, or 6 to 21 harpoons/sabots. That's not a LOT of missiles for a cruiser, but its a useful amount at least.
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