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Author Topic: High tech feels like a wet noodle.  (Read 17733 times)

Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2024, 11:05:38 AM »

- Just a few Overdrive Hyperions with 2 x Heavy Blaster and Heavy Machine Gun will rip apart anything up to late game, including Remnants and dorritos. They will dance around your slow ass low tech junk and kill Onslaught 1v1 in under 20 seconds. (...) All fights are done in under 30 seconds. (...) You can also build boring long range sniping high tech fleets, and they are very good at it with advannced optics - low tech has nothing like this.

Hear that Vanshilar? You've been doing it wrong all this time, this guy clears an Ordo in 30 seconds, and you don't even get to enemy ships in that time. You gotta step up your game.

Quote
P.S. My current best 240 DP fleet now is 4 Autopulse Paragon + 2 Alpha Core Radiants 5 autopulse at 40% CR and 4 SO Hyperions.

Putting 420 DP worth of ships in a 240 DP fleet, that really does sound great!
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Phenir

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2024, 11:23:48 AM »

It's 1 paragon with 4 autopulse, not 4 paragons with autopulses.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2024, 12:05:50 PM »

- Just a few Overdrive Hyperions with 2 x Heavy Blaster and Heavy Machine Gun will rip apart anything up to late game, including Remnants and dorritos. They will dance around your slow ass low tech junk and kill Onslaught 1v1 in under 20 seconds. (...) All fights are done in under 30 seconds. (...) You can also build boring long range sniping high tech fleets, and they are very good at it with advannced optics - low tech has nothing like this.

Hear that Vanshilar? You've been doing it wrong all this time, this guy clears an Ordo in 30 seconds, and you don't even get to enemy ships in that time. You gotta step up your game.

Quote
P.S. My current best 240 DP fleet now is 4 Autopulse Paragon + 2 Alpha Core Radiants 5 autopulse at 40% CR and 4 SO Hyperions.

Putting 420 DP worth of ships in a 240 DP fleet, that really does sound great!
google what "hyperbole" means

I think what this guy says is entirely correct, whilst it's not fully efficient. Paragon with 4 Autopulse Lasers can defeat 4 Onslaughts, albeit extremely inefficiently, imo. You should get 2 Tachyon Lances. A few weeks ago I said "increase Paragon's armour", cause I was stupid, and was doing a theoretical buff plan. Now I realise that we should buff Paragon's armour, but set its shield efficiency to 0.8, cause having infinite shields is stupid, and Fortress Shield will give it huge durability anyway... But that is also stupid, so just pretend this whole paragraph doesn't exist.

420 dp in your fleet doesn't matter, if your ships are strong enough to wipe out everything... It's probably just kind of a show off at this point. I mean, Signir showed that they could kill like 20 morbillion Remnants at a time with 3 Paragons and a toothpick. And I'm assuming they don't use Radiants for style points. So, it's irrelevant...

Though maybe it's better to just have one Radiant instead of 2, cause 40% CR sounds really bad. Though it can probably still delete most things with ease. No idea, never tried Automated Fleets unless to use Derelicts, cause I think Derelicts are cool. Especially the spider one.

I think the reason why Autopulse is as effective as it is, could be because of Expanded Mags. Though I read things at 2 times speed, so I only hear 50% of what you guys are saying. So, maybe Juno isn't using that s-mod at all. If they don't. I recommend they do.

You can also build boring long range sniping high tech fleets, and they are very good at it with advannced optics - low tech has nothing like this.
But why bother when you can shred everything in seconds.
Velociraptors, Darth Maul are 1k range. Giant Coilgun is 1.1, and all the other large ballistics with the exception of I AM THE STORM are 900 range. But sniping things with beams isn't really that fun, especially against Remnants who have strong shields and extreme flux dispersing capabilities. Whereas typical long range Ballistics deal hard flux. So they are technically better??? Never bothered to compare.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 12:09:03 PM by Killer of Fate »
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Juno

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2024, 08:22:11 PM »

- Just a few Overdrive Hyperions with 2 x Heavy Blaster and Heavy Machine Gun will rip apart anything up to late game, including Remnants and dorritos. They will dance around your slow ass low tech junk and kill Onslaught 1v1 in under 20 seconds. (...) All fights are done in under 30 seconds. (...) You can also build boring long range sniping high tech fleets, and they are very good at it with advannced optics - low tech has nothing like this.

Hear that Vanshilar? You've been doing it wrong all this time, this guy clears an Ordo in 30 seconds, and you don't even get to enemy ships in that time. You gotta step up your game.

Quote
P.S. My current best 240 DP fleet now is 4 Autopulse Paragon + 2 Alpha Core Radiants 5 autopulse at 40% CR and 4 SO Hyperions.

Putting 420 DP worth of ships in a 240 DP fleet, that really does sound great!

Man after playing low tech switching to high tech is a blessing.
The experience is exactly as you say - you clear double Ordos in less time it takes low tech fleet to get to them lol.

Uh let me clarify. The strongest 240 DP fleet I fielded is:

60 DP Pagaron. 4 Autopulse + 2 Antimatter Blasters + 2 Ion Pulsers + 9 Burst PDs in the back. No small missiles, need the points. All weapons use charges so S-mod Expanded Magazines for 50% faster ammo regen - it's a massive DPS boost when going toe to toe against a Radiant or Onslaught. Other smods are Heavy Armor and Aux Thrusters so can get to the fight before its over. Shield conversion front (I know we have 360 shield already, but 3 points cheaper than Accelerated shields, and does same 100% shield speed), Stabilized shields, hardened shields, solar shielding, resistant flux conduits. 55 vents 2 caps. When you get super redacted weapons replace Am Blasters with Minipulsers or Rift Lances. No frontal PD because who needs it with so many autofire weapons cleaving our way.

2 x 60 DP Alpha Core Radiants. With every skill that gives CR they will end up at 40% CR.
Yes, that means no combat skills for you, but who needs them with these two yolos around and besides you are inside a Paragon tin can with your elite Ordnance expertise, Polarized Armor, Gunnery Implants, and Energy Weapon Mastery. It's not so bad. Still wish I had 1-2 more skill points ofc to add more combat prowess.

Simple design to skimmer in your face and make a nice first impression: 5 Autopulses, 4 Attimatter Blasters, 4 Ion Pulsers. S-mod Expanded Magazines - need that ammo regen please for unstoppable RATATATATA; Heavy Armor, ITU. Same shield standard stuff as Para - Shield conversion Front, Stab shields, Hardened, Solar, Resistant Flux. 55 vents 3 caps.

I am not using missiles / Reapers because
(1) they require skill investment into Missile Spec and skills are tight. And even then your precious torps get shot down long before they do anything. Also  the AI likes to yolo them randomly half screen off. Overall, terrible weapons. Yes they have their moment once in a blue moon, but RATATATA is much more reliable and not a subject to PD.
(2) as Mr. BeeBop pointed out are subject to heavy PD which AI fields a LOT of. So need also ECCM to even start thinking about it, and hull mods are tight.
(3) I laugh at people S-modding Expanded Missile Racks on Radiant because guys do your math, the entire fight will be over LONG before you manage to dump all your Reapers with that horrible 25% refire speed nerf. You never ever S-mod this, and even then got to dump 6x2 (12) Reaper charges x ~12 seconds refire each salvo with missile spec buff 25% refire speed, thats ETERNITY for this fleet lol. Overall, bad smod and hull mod, unless 10 minute fights are your thing - and hey, with low tech junk it probably is, lol.

Radiant Skills are very important:
Combat Endurance - need every ounce of that sweet CR, oh and let us regen our lost hull while we at it and put our shields back on;
Impact Mitigation - less armor damage, but more importantly elite 50% maneuver boost;
Field Modulation - because we like to phase skimmer in front of 3 Onslaugts, this skill lets you do it, kill them all, and come back home to tell stories about it;
Target Analysis -because damages for RATATATATA;
Gunnery Implants - because better autofire leading accuracy and more range for our RATATATATATA;
Energy Weapon Mastery - because we like to phase skimmer in someone's face in kissing distance so 30% more damages and better flux for RATATATATA;
Ordnance Expertise - because we live and die by the Holy Flux;

and most important one - Systems Expertise! You thought Phase Skimmer was annoying and broken? How about now it teleports us literally anywhere, has 4 charges, we can skim around Onslaught and laugh as its slow poke torpedoes going wrong way, we dont care about Helmsmanship because why walk when we can FLY. This skill right here makes Radiant just insane, since its next to impossible to kill it when it can skimmer a screen away, vent, and jump back into your face. And elite 10% less damage taken because we like to facetank and vent in front of entire enemy fleet is just an icing on the cake;

These guys job is very simple - we skimmer in front of someone, RATATATATA dump 5x1500 + 4x1400 + 4x900 damage worth in their face which melts 2/3 of ships in the game instantly into a slug, skimmer away, recharge, and come back to do it again. If we stay, we go sustained, which is also good damage since we got 50% faster ammo regen and noody can keep up with the shower of love.

4 x 15 DP SO Hyperions. Many ways to build these guys, simpliest is 2 Heavy Blaster and Heavy Machine Gun. Here's a nice little guide by Mr.. Ibudoto the inspiration came from: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23736.0
You can try 3xIon Pulser version, or 2xIon Pulse 1 Heavy Blaster too, but my observations show that these guys are doing best at hit and run, and giving them autofiring weapons often makes them stay their welcome longer than they should, so 2 HB + 1 HMG is safer.

They charge into entire enemy fleet tank it like a baws, then skimmer to the backlines and delete all suppors. Also very very hard to kill with their phase skimmer. Treat them as mini-Radiants. The onl major downside is short operational time readiness and dwindling CR, also massive supply cost.

Hopefully that was informative for you, it was boring morning so I typed it with my smoke and coffee.
And again to the OP - no, high tech is not bad. Tri Tach is bad, thats for sure, but high tech fleets are the best *** ever.
Have fun starfarers!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 09:11:31 PM by Juno »
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2024, 09:41:53 PM »

I eagerly await a video of your hightech fleet beating a (optional: double) Ordo in 30 seconds.

google what "hyperbole" means

"hyperbole, noun

A statement or claim completely out of place in any discussion involving specific qualities or comparing performance"
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Killer of Fate

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2024, 07:32:18 AM »

I eagerly await a video of your hightech fleet beating a (optional: double) Ordo in 30 seconds.

google what "hyperbole" means

"hyperbole, noun

A statement or claim completely out of place in any discussion involving specific qualities or comparing performance"
they obviously didn't mean that their fleet could defeat a Remnant Ordo fleet in literally 30 seconds. They were just making a point about how High Tech is way faster than Low Tech and if you have an overpowered composition, it's way less boring to use a fast moving fleet to kill Remnants than Dominators and Onslaughts.

But I guess I shouldn't assume I know what they mean, cause it would be rude of me if that wasn't actually the case.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 07:54:24 AM by Killer of Fate »
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Juno

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2024, 07:37:43 PM »

Of course I am exaggerating a bit.
It takes roughly 30 seconds for the slowpokes to even show up.

That being said, the fast-paced nature of high-tech fleets will win out. Just a simple fleet of SO Hyperions will rip apart Ordo faster than anything low tech has to offer simply because they blink and delete things every CD - like a mini-Radiant.

Btw - after a massive war with Hegemony (stop stealing my AI administrators wtf!) I have updated my fits for full PD on capitals. The Reaper spam is real, and when Radiant facehugging a Legion or Onslaught they eat it all.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 07:49:48 PM by Juno »
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Beep Boop

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2024, 01:14:54 AM »

Of course I am exaggerating a bit.
It takes roughly 30 seconds for the slowpokes to even show up.
I mean, technically, it doesn't count until they do. CR consumption only begins when contact is made with the enemy, not when you merely warp onto the map.
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Vanshilar

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2024, 01:15:27 AM »

Disagree. Been playing nothing but high tech recently, after low and mid, and its the best dopamine.
High tech is bad at the hands of AI with suboptimal fits, no argument here.

In hands of a player it is the strongest possible, it will chew several low- mid- tech fleets at same time and ask for more.

Eh go ahead and post a video of it in action then. You can use the Detailed Combat Results mod which counts the damage done as well as how long the battle takes. I haven't played with Low Tech that much but right now it seems like High Tech is fairly weak, while Midline is the strongest. Midline has a good complement of long-range ballistics and missiles, whereas High Tech basically ends up using long range beams (which Remnants will shrug off) or short range hard flux, with or without Safety Overrides, which means it takes a lot of damage against any worthwhile opponent while it's trying to close in. So High Tech's flux advantage just goes toward absorbing damage.

Another important thing is shield tanking rocks, and armor/hull sucks. Shield is indefinite, while armor/hull are not.
And low tech suffers terribly to it. A high tech ship with 1hp hull and full shield will fight and kill, where low tech just flops.

Both Low Tech and Midline get long range ballistics, which means you get to weaken or outright kill enemy ships before they even get into range. So you don't even have to worry about shields vs armor vs hull.

The amount of Dakka carnage is glorious and fast-paced, and there is nothing close low tech can do similar to this.

Sure, in some sense it's more exciting, in a drag racing sort of way, because you're always just one moment away from exploding, but in terms of effectiveness (enemy ships killed per unit time) High Tech ships are generally not that effective unless you're up against a weak fleet. So they're great for "punching down" i.e. against earlier-game fleets, but not so good against endgame fleets. Against strong fleets they end up spending too much of their time trying to stay alive and not enough time on killing enemy ships. That should be obvious from pretty much any video focusing on using them. Useful as flankers but not something to build a fleet around.

Hear that Vanshilar? You've been doing it wrong all this time, this guy clears an Ordo in 30 seconds, and you don't even get to enemy ships in that time. You gotta step up your game.

Yeah it's based on the observation that it usually takes around 45 seconds just for the fleets to meet each other in the middle of the map, for the fight to get started. Now this guy is claiming that it can be done in 30 seconds while piloting a 30-speed Paragon without any speed buffs.

2 x 60 DP Alpha Core Radiants. With every skill that gives CR they will end up at 40% CR.

Trying this build out against double Ordos (flagship Onslaught + Conquest + Radiant + 3 Gryphons), the 60-DP Radiant did less than 3/4 of the damage of the 40-DP Conquest. It also took over 50% more damage...and this is with the Conquest having base 1.4 shield efficiency and the Radiant having base 0.6 shield efficiency. The problem is that the weapons are basically shorter-ranged weapons. So if there's an isolated target, great, it jumps in and takes the target down. But in a fleet situation it just means it gets surrounded on all sides and takes a bunch of unnecessary damage that drives up its flux, then it's basically useless since the Fearless AI doesn't know how to back off. So the short range really kills its effectiveness. Same issue as with Safety Overrides basically.

4 x 15 DP SO Hyperions. Many ways to build these guys, simpliest is 2 Heavy Blaster and Heavy Machine Gun. Here's a nice little guide by Mr.. Ibudoto the inspiration came from: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23736.0

Incidentally those videos showed how weak Hyperions were, and that was before they were nerfed. (I didn't think it needed to be nerfed,) The Hyperions took over 10 minutes to kill 1038 DP's worth of Ordos. Assuming a 45-second initial travel time (for Hyperions it's actually more like 25 seconds, but I'll still count it as 45 seconds to be consistent, so they get an extra 20 seconds "free") this works out to around 108 DP's worth of enemy ships killed per minute. Whereas the double Ordos farming fleet I posted for 0.96a (found here) killed 755 DP in 222 seconds, which works out to around 256 DP's worth of enemy ships killed per minute, and I'm currently playtesting a fleet for 0.97a that can kill over 300 DP's worth of enemy ships per minute against double Ordos.

So a fleet of Hyperions kills double Ordos at roughly 1/3 the speed of the best fleets, i.e. takes three times longer. By comparison, using the same farming fleet but without using any s-mods (for all the people who claim that the fleet only works due to 3 s-mods) means the fleet only loses around 20% of its DPS; it's still operating at around 80% of its killing speed. Hyperions may look flashy and they're good for killing stragglers, but they just don't work well as the basis of the fleet either.

Now you can certainly make High Tech fleets work, in that you can use them to kill multiple Ordos. But going through all this is to say that in terms of making them work well, there are ways to quantitatively compare different player fleets, and right now from that data I don't see much coming out of High Tech fleets. I've yet to see a High Tech fleet come anywhere close to what Midline fleets can do.
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Beep Boop

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2024, 01:20:43 AM »

Now you can certainly make High Tech fleets work, in that you can use them to kill multiple Ordos. But going through all this is to say that in terms of making them work well, there are ways to quantitatively compare different player fleets, and right now from that data I don't see much coming out of High Tech fleets. I've yet to see a High Tech fleet come anywhere close to what Midline fleets can do.
I think that's mostly because the notion of a "High Tech Fleet" isn't real. This isn't actually a thing in the game. There is no faction that fields such a thing. The closest thing, Tri-Tach, still fills out the lineup with phase ships and Brawlers, which, even though made blue, are technically midlines. Plus, Tri-Tach is probably the worst example to emulate because they aren't a serious military power and their fleet doctrine is thus terrible. High-Tech is glitz and flash, not a coherent military doctrine. You use them to bling out your normal, sensible fleet. Making them your ENTIRE fleet reveals the holes in the lineup. Equipping an entire fleet with High-Tech makes about as much sense as equipping an entire police force with Lamborghinis.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 01:26:49 AM by Beep Boop »
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Killer of Fate

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2024, 03:39:44 AM »

you can make good High Tech fleets... You just use Shrikes, Furies, Auroras, Tempests... Sure, it will be *** annoying to use against Remnants. Not impossible. But definitely standard XIV + Paragon spam is better... But it's not useless.

The reason why you might think TT is bad is caused by their doctrine, not the ships they're using. High Tech ships with competent officers scale really well cause of infinite durability. Or at least the fact that they are usually all energy or all energy and missiles, whereas say Onslaught XIV has damage split across 3 different weapons. But that gets convoluted, so nvm...

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Like, most people would consider this fleet a piece of ***. But that is mostly cause High Tech needs a few buffs here and there to make it less obnoxious. For e.g. Astral should be 40 DP. Fury's weight should be 1300 instead of 650, so it can sucker punch. But who cares...

Whilst there are High Tech ships that are premium garbage. Like honestly Scarab is *** stupid. 8 DP for something that runs out of peak operating time so quickly? I know you can put Hardened Subsystems on it, but do all that effort for what? A couple of AMB shots? Meh... Frigates suck. Tempest is good though.

Aurora whilst slow is probably one of the strongest ships in the game. Tempest is amazing at duelling for control points, shutting down those dumb *** Glimmers and Lumens. Shrike and Fury are at least cheap. And Shrike makes a good beam/missile support ship, whilst Fury can be really tanky for its low DP weight. And fast too... Meaning it can be a good harassement ship. Or at least disposable troop.

Phase ships are obviously underpowered, and need Phase Coil Tuning to be somewhat good. But whatever...

Juno

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2024, 06:55:37 AM »

Lol high tech weak  :o
https://imgur.com/a/lpS9XGk

That thing 1v2 Onslaughts in simulation in 2 minutes.

Spoiler
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Zero combat skills. Some of my fingers are barely working, so I always fly on AI controls.
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This thing 1v3 Onslaughts from simulation. Maybe can kill more, didn't bother to test.
Spoiler
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I know simulation is far from ideal test, but it should give you an idea just how good survivability and damage output is for high tech ships if you build for it. Sorry, but trashing poor pirates and Tri Tach doesn't count as a good measure. It is the strongest tech atm by far, and it's not even close.

Yes you can run ballistic XIV fleet, or spam sniper Eradicators, but those are boring, take ages to kill stuff, and essentially weak to a good high tech rush, which even AI Radiants can sometimes offer if you pull too many Ordos.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 07:00:15 AM by Juno »
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Beep Boop

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2024, 11:48:27 AM »

you can make good High Tech fleets... You just use Shrikes, Furies, Auroras, Tempests... Sure, it will be *** annoying to use against Remnants. Not impossible. But definitely standard XIV + Paragon spam is better... But it's not useless.
You can, but at this point your fleet is still more flash than substance. It's very shiny and very blue, and given how much you've spent on it, it CAN work, but it could work better at a lower price point if you mixed it up a little. "Design Doctrine Purity" is not really a thing that is well-supported as it results in a commonality of weakness.

The reason why you might think TT is bad is caused by their doctrine, not the ships they're using.
Yeah, I kinda explicitly said that.

Aurora whilst slow is probably one of the strongest ships in the game. Tempest is amazing at duelling for control points, shutting down those dumb *** Glimmers and Lumens. Shrike and Fury are at least cheap. And Shrike makes a good beam/missile support ship, whilst Fury can be really tanky for its low DP weight. And fast too... Meaning it can be a good harassement ship. Or at least disposable troop.
I wouldn't characterize the Aurora as slow, but one common thread that underlies a large number of the smaller HighTech ships is that they're rather undergunned. It gives them very poor stopping power and spamming them in a pure HT fleet just magnifies the problem. I'm not saying this needs to be fixed, since they're still otherwise good ships, but it's not a point in favor of spamming them as a mono-doctrine fleet.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2024, 12:02:30 PM »

you can make good High Tech fleets... You just use Shrikes, Furies, Auroras, Tempests... Sure, it will be *** annoying to use against Remnants. Not impossible. But definitely standard XIV + Paragon spam is better... But it's not useless.
You can, but at this point your fleet is still more flash than substance. It's very shiny and very blue, and given how much you've spent on it, it CAN work, but it could work better at a lower price point if you mixed it up a little. "Design Doctrine Purity" is not really a thing that is well-supported as it results in a commonality of weakness.
long response:

Spoiler
skill issue, tbh

you can kill 90% of enemies in the game with ease using a pure High Tech fleet with relative ease. It's only Remnants that I find problematic. Maybe Guardians. Cause they're *** fast. But otherwise you can kinda do it.

A very high shield health paired with surround tactics and permanent Cobra bombing is good enough to wipe out most fleets that bunch up into a ball and wait for you to kill them. But I'm not going to try to prove that it can kill multiple Ordos, cause it probably can't. Not without SO at least.

I could dissect every other thing you said... Like High Tech not working in conjunction with itself. I mean.... Tech levels are kinda meant to work with each other on the same tech level. High Tech works with itself because all ships keep a common mobility and their capital ships are designed to give a lot of long range support which isn't mobility, but is omni-presence which acts relatively similar. Though you could argue that with every capital ship. Except not really... Cause Low Tech capitals were designed for tanking... I guess you could say Paragon was too. But when I meant High Tech capitals, I meant Odyssey and Astral. Paragon isn't really a High Tech ship. It's more like a Low Tech ship with blue paint.

So, Astral and Odyssey are good at providing a punch, not durability. If the enemy is distracted, they can do a lot. But currently I think both Odyssey and Astral are overpriced. And Odyssey suffers because it's given a 0.2 shields too little.

Aurora being slow is because for a High Tech ship, it is slow. It's the slowest non-Capital ship of all High Tech. Which means it can get stuck pursuing random enemies somewhere out there. It's also the most durable High Tech ship, being capable of duelling standard Remnant cruisers. But eh, that's too much info...

You get the point.

ps. Whilst High Tech ships are undergunned... AM Blaster exists and EMP weapons do too. They have less slots, but if you combine them well, they can either provide superior damage through the proper utilisation of High Tech ship's very high flux. Or via long-term death of a thousand cuts combat. Breach helps. The Dev knows it, that's why they put so much Breach on Novas.

Whilst Low Tech and Midline ships have a lot of slots for weapons. At least Low Tech does. Midline usually does too... They are contextually weakened. A Sunder and a Champion can only hold a long range beam or has to take a lot of risks that paired with their meh durability and mobility, put them into a dangerous situation with a short range energy weapons. Whereas a Fury can easily use AMBs, a Champion is designed clearly to never make use of them, because of limited OP, mobility, shield bla bla bla...

Low Tech can also technically equip themselves with the most punchy weapons, but they have very significant flux restrictions. Meaning most of their slots have to go to point defence, especially considering that unlike High Tech, which can simply absorb more problematic projectiles, they have to always be careful. Because a Cobra hitting their shield will deal them 2k hard flux damage. Which doesn't sound so bad. But contextually it can hurt. And also unlike High Tech ships, a Legion can't dodge. Not even a *** Enforcer can.

pps. another thing about High Tech is that their missile slots can be more easily utilised, because they tend to fight at closer range. And said missiles are way more dangerous than in the hands of Low Tech or Midline this way, especially if you utilise EMP weapons to disable enemy PD grids. Which, sure, Midline can do too. Midline especially can utilise EMP weapons like Ion Beam, maybe Tachyon Lance but large energy is rare for them. And it's flux and op expensive. But if they are using a long range EMP beam, then they probably aren't short range bruisers. Which means they may find it difficult to use Breach/Sabot/Reaper/Atropos, etc. Though not impossible obviously. Hit and run tactics or hit without retaliation tactics make it more difficult to land missiles, because in the case of High Tech, you can shoot at range close enough to distract the enemy with your own body. Which is why High Tech gets the Astral, cause its doctrine is designed to give cover for bombers. On the other hand Astral is overpriced and disallows deploying enough distraction for its bombers to hit, because it itself occupies too much DP.
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« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 01:09:55 PM by Killer of Fate »
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Beep Boop

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Re: High tech feels like a wet noodle.
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2024, 12:47:11 PM »

you can kill 90% of enemies in the game with ease using a pure High Tech fleet with relative ease. It's only Remnants that I find problematic. Maybe Guardians. Cause they're *** fast. But otherwise you can kinda do it.
I'm not really sure "good against 90% of your enemies, except 90% of what you're actually going to be fighting" is a strong argument here. If we exclude Remnant enemies, that just leaves human enemies, and that's "*** you can practically solo in an Aurora".

I could dissect every other thing you said... Like High Tech not working in conjunction with itself. I mean.... Tech levels are kinda meant to work with each other on the same tech level. High Tech works with itself because all ships keep a common mobility and their capital ships are designed to give a lot of long range support which isn't mobility, but is omni-presence which acts relatively similar.
And yet the tech levels often work cross-doctrine even better. Low-Tech Spam is okay...but it's even better if you field them with high-tech harassers and flankers, which is why Wolf (H), which gives a low-tech lineup the ability to do the thing that low-tech otherwise underperforms in. HT, similarly, performs best when paired with some Low or Mid ships to give them the core punch they often lack.

ps. Whilst High Tech ships are undergunned... AM Blaster exists and EMP weapons do too.
AM Blasters are effectively melee weapons, though. Having to use melee weapons severely detracts from the benefit of having high mobility in the first place.
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