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Author Topic: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10  (Read 1534 times)

eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« on: April 12, 2024, 03:58:42 PM »

Which is the same as Expanded Mags for reference. As it currently stands, only the Paragon and Scarab can effectively make use of this hullmod due to its extreme OP cost and drawbacks.
While this will make Paragons with HSA more powerful, it would only be a buff of about 10 OP which isn't sector ending.

Its current price point is equal to either of the two Flux hullmods, which it just isn't worth taking outside of the two above extremes. Decreasing that price point opens up more builds that use hardflux beam weapons either fully or as a mix alongside energy bolt weapons. Likewise, it would function as an indirect buff to certain beam PD such as the PD and Burst PD Laser. ExMags is better for BPD, however if a built doesn't need it outside of PD, and the build can integrate one or more offensive beam weapon, then HSA would work as a nice alternative.

If that still somehow ends up being too expensive (mainly for frigates and destroyers), dropping it down to 2/4/6/10, or equivalent to Advanced Turret Gyros, should be enough.
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Cryovolcanic

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2024, 04:43:43 PM »

Endorse +1
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Demoncard

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2024, 09:54:56 PM »

This, and make it actually visually scatter the laser.
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SCC

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2024, 07:25:01 AM »

Comparison to big mags is especially interesting, since s-modded big mags can make wild difference for certain ships. HSA's 10% more damage seems quaint in comparison.

prav

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2024, 07:29:58 AM »

S-mags is pretty far up the power curve. I'm not saying it needs an urgent nerf, but...
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Amoebka

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2024, 07:32:13 AM »

S-mags is exactly where s-mods should be. It's not gamebreaking or an auto-pick on any ship, but it's good enough to create entirely new builds around itself.

HSA is nowhere close, and it needs to be more powerful, not cheaper.
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Insolent Peon

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2024, 11:05:56 AM »

Before s-mod bonuses became vanilla, the mod that introduced the concept made it so s-modding high-scatter amplifier reduced the range decrease. IIRC, it was a 25% decrease in range over 200, rather than 50%. That made it much more usable, and I'd love to see it return.
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Thaago

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2024, 11:42:50 AM »

S-mags is exactly where s-mods should be. It's not gamebreaking or an auto-pick on any ship, but it's good enough to create entirely new builds around itself.

HSA is nowhere close, and it needs to be more powerful, not cheaper.

I think S-mags is a bit too much tbh because while its not an auto-pick on any ship, it is an autopick on certain weapons. IR Autolance, storm needler, ion pulser, autopulse laser... unless the weapon is really secondary and nothing else on the ship has charges, all of those mean an autopick of mags. 50% is just a huge multiplier on the effective mounts that a ship has when using those weapons.

I'd say lowering the regen from 50% to 33% would be enough. It doesn't need to be that much less, its just a bit much right now!
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Amoebka

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2024, 11:56:11 AM »

Sure, let's nerf it until it's in the same group with shield shunt and HSA - technically in the game but not actually used.

Hullmods that benefit specific weapons/loadouts need to be strong enough to actually open up new build options. If you nerf s-mags, it will only become even more of "only ever use when you had this type of build to begin with", or even "never use at all".
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2024, 12:36:12 PM »

Sure, let's nerf it until it's in the same group with shield shunt and HSA - technically in the game but not actually used.

Hullmods that benefit specific weapons/loadouts need to be strong enough to actually open up new build options. If you nerf s-mags, it will only become even more of "only ever use when you had this type of build to begin with", or even "never use at all".

People used magazines before there was an s-mod bonus, and dropping the regen bonus to 33% is hardly "into the ground." It would absolutely still get used even if it had no s-mod bonus, you just wouldn't s-mod it.

I'd say reduce the cost of HSA and buff its s-mod bonus.
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Thaago

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2024, 01:03:45 PM »

Sure, let's nerf it until it's in the same group with shield shunt and HSA - technically in the game but not actually used.

Hullmods that benefit specific weapons/loadouts need to be strong enough to actually open up new build options. If you nerf s-mags, it will only become even more of "only ever use when you had this type of build to begin with", or even "never use at all".

That seems like a bit of an over-reaction. I proposed a very minor nerf to one of the strongest S mods (its one of the strongest hullmods period in its niche). The only other hullmod that comes to mind with such a huge S mod effect is escort package, which is kind of in a beta phase imo. I would still use e-mags with a 33% boost every single time I'm using charge based weapons.

As a comparison: Advanced Optics. It is a niche hullmod for beams, is expensive, has no S mod effect at all, and is critical and always taken for some builds. I think its in a good place because of how useful it is, but its not transformational the way expanded magazines is.
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Grievous69

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2024, 01:35:01 PM »

Not very sound arguments I must admit. "People used Exp Mags before" has nothing to do with the s-mod bonus. You're giving up a bunch of OP (it's on of the cheapest hullmods there are) to gain a bonus you can't get normally.

Advanced Optics gives you more range on already long range weapons. That's a very potent power multiplier in a fleet setting so even if it was more expensive it would see uses.

Can't really compare anything to HSA, which could use lower OP cost as suggested by the original topic here, and with that bump the s-mod effect.

Shield Shunt also needs an s-mod bonus buff.

Basically, when there's more unique setups, there will be more choices and so some things won't appear too prevalent like right now. Exp Mags is common because it's easy to pull off, you just need a ship that's not terribly slow and charge based weapons. It's strong because you make deadly ships even more deadly.
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prav

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2024, 02:12:13 PM »

You're giving up a bunch of OP (it's on of the cheapest hullmods there are) to gain a bonus you can't get normally.

More practically you're spending 2/5/8/15 OP and a story point on a +50% ammo regen hullmod that would see more use than EMags if it were a standalone.

Anyway my thrust isn't that smags needs a nerf neccessarily, but that using it as a balancing target means power creep.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2024, 02:14:18 PM by prav »
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2024, 05:44:41 PM »

If people want a better s-mod bonus for HSA, removing its 5% s-mod damage buff, and replacing it with a flux decrease for beam weapons would be a good idea.
Right around 10% should be enough.

My reasoning for this is that beam weapons should never compete with energy bolt weapons or ballistic weapons. If their damage gets buffed further, then we'll start seeing issues where the effective DPS of beam weapons outcompetes bolt weapons due to beams almost always hitting and bolts frequently missing.
Likewise decreasing the range decrease would make it an auto pick, as the thing that keeps the faster High-Tech ships in check is their short range. If you give an Aurora ballistic range energy weapons, there's very little in the game that will be able to fight against it.

Beam DPS would be flux efficient but OP inefficient, while energy bolt DPS would be flux inefficient but OP efficient.
This would have a valuable use case for ships that have a good amount of OP, but not enough venting. So high-tech frigates like the Wolf, Midline ships, and many Remnant ships.
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FooF

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Re: Decrease High Scatter Amplifier OP cost down to 3/5/7/10
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2024, 06:34:03 PM »

Re: HSA

Yes, I think an OP cost reduction would help but I still doubt I'd use it.

What if the S-mod bonus reduced the range malus? Like modifying the base range from 200 to 400? Or reducing the "past base range" modifier from 50% to 40%?

Take a Phase Lance (600 Range):
Current HSA = 400 Range
Modifying base range from 200 to 400 = 500
Reducing reduction modifier to 40% = 440

Same thing but with a 1000 range beam:
Current = 600
Base range 400 = 700
40% = 680

I kind of like the 400 starting point because it would mean Energy PD is practically unaffected (except LRPD). Hurting your PD ranges is a kind of a poison pill that you don't know you're swallowing. It also hurts the shorter-ranged weapons less than the long-range ones, which is sort of a happy coincidence. The Phase Lance only loses 17% range versus base relative to the 30% a Tac Laser (or similar) does.

Re: S-modded Exp Mags

I think it's fine. We need more outside-the-box, playstyle-changing options. The only weapon I think it really makes S-Tier is the Storm Needler, which might get toned down after it was adjusted last patch. Burst PD and Paladins really needs it to stay +50% to make worthwhile, Ion Pulser isn't made a world-beater and even the Autopulse only goes from "Solid B" to "A" tier in my book. With Exp Mags, it also burns through a ton of flux in its initial volley. You're still paying for all the additional damage and it doesn't have particularly high damage/shot.
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