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Author Topic: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 323014 times)

Brainwright

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #390 on: April 13, 2023, 06:51:44 AM »

I’m curious to know if the new autoloader plus sabots is going to be a viable alternative to the needler for frigates.

The needler has been king for flux and OP efficiency, and everything that can’t get it feels a bit hampered.
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Fenrir

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #391 on: April 13, 2023, 06:58:22 AM »

The needler has been king for flux and OP efficiency, and everything that can’t get it feels a bit hampered.
I believe Auto cannons had and will done a good job as an alternative after buff.
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Brainwright

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #392 on: April 13, 2023, 07:02:01 AM »

There's no way Front Shield Conversion is getting nerfed... I'm not sure I ever caught myself thinking "man, this hullmod is bonkers". Let me guess, s-mod bonus gives it cost reduction?

By the way, I found FSC to be the most bonkers hullmod because of how well it worked with specific high-tech ships, removing their blind spot and mitigating their expensive shields.

I’d like it if adding a shield conversion plus stabilized cost five OP total much like advanced gyros and armored weapon mounts does now.  Or maybe the s-mod bonus gives you the flux reduction of stabilized shields?

Either way, FSC was almost a requirement on some ships.
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Brainwright

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #393 on: April 13, 2023, 07:06:01 AM »

I believe Auto cannons had and will done a good job as an alternative after buff.

Not really.  Ships that use dual acs won’t dump soft flux when engaged, leaving even a tactical laser as a significant threat once the flux builds up.
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Dadada

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #394 on: April 13, 2023, 07:06:36 AM »

Dem juicy changes. :D

Quote
Eagle:

    Reverted part of deployment/maintenance cost change, up to 20 (originally: 22)
    Reverted speed increase (back to 50 from 60); left increased acceleration
    May still be too strong at that cost, but we'll see

Fury:

    Increased ordnance points to 130 (was: 120)
    Increased top speed to 95 (was: 90)
Nice

Quote
Aurora:

    Improved shield efficiency to 0.6 (was: 0.8 )
I did not feel like the Aurora needed any buffs... I take it -- as a high tech enjoyer and Aurora lover. :D

Completely unrelated to the above, an issue I've noticed with the AI for Plasma Burn is that it'll still run into hulks and such quite frequently, making it flame out and sending it careening into the enemy fleet. That makes it always a bit chancy to have AI Odysseys or Furies in the fleet. Was there any changes to the AI for Plasma Burn, i.e. check if there are any big hulks or other ships in its path before deciding to Plasma Burn? I don't know if it was brought up in the forums before so...it may have to wait until after the next update heh.

It's possible that there are AI changes pertaining to this; I've certainly touched the code there and I remember fixing this - though with things like this, it could've been "fixed one of like 3 different causes". I'll keep an eye out!
Nice. :D
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Histidine

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #395 on: April 13, 2023, 07:07:50 AM »

Two fullerene spools now, but shouldn't some of the other colony items appear in the core worlds as well?
(Well I guess accessibility boosters to prevent permanent shipping shortages are needed more)
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Fenrir

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #396 on: April 13, 2023, 07:10:18 AM »

I believe Auto cannons had and will done a good job as an alternative after buff.

Not really.  Ships that use dual acs won’t dump soft flux when engaged, leaving even a tactical laser as a significant threat once the flux builds up.

My experience says use single ACs then, which you should be doing most of the time.
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Dadada

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #397 on: April 13, 2023, 07:11:54 AM »

Maybe a condition a la "established trade routes" or something which adds accessibility or even min. accessibility? Inb4 just buff core access and/or change fall off formula or S-Mod ports/waystations in (some) core regions.
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #398 on: April 13, 2023, 07:12:07 AM »

There's no way Front Shield Conversion is getting nerfed... I'm not sure I ever caught myself thinking "man, this hullmod is bonkers". Let me guess, s-mod bonus gives it cost reduction?

By the way, I found FSC to be the most bonkers hullmod because of how well it worked with specific high-tech ships, removing their blind spot and mitigating their expensive shields.

I’d like it if adding a shield conversion plus stabilized cost five OP total much like advanced gyros and armored weapon mounts does now.  Or maybe the s-mod bonus gives you the flux reduction of stabilized shields?

Either way, FSC was almost a requirement on some ships.
So is Armoured Weapon Mounts also a broken hullmod? Or Expanded Missile Racks? I can go on like this but my point is it's wrong to balance hullmods just because specific ships really utilize them well. We then end up with mediocre stuff no one will bother to install save for a handful of ships.

EDIT: Megas and some others are better historians than me but let me remind everyone of past Expanded Missile Racks, when it got nerfed, no one used it, and then got buffed. Hardened Shields went through a similar path. Expanded Deck Crew also got gutted and I have not used it a single time since then. Shield Shunt is yet another hullmod which got nerfed because one ship became too strong, now it's a joke hullmod pretty much (yes yes you can still use it but it's inferior to a normal fleet setup). There's probably something else I'm forgetting.

Anyways yeah, balance of ships and weapons is in a great place, but I feel like hullmods are all over the place. Guess we'll see how s-mod bonuses change that.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 07:19:58 AM by Grievous69 »
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Draba

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #399 on: April 13, 2023, 07:27:26 AM »

Frontal conversion being cheap without upkeep reduction would be nice, being that obvious a choice in lots of cases was a bit silly but as mentioned it's a nice convenience for player ships.

Looking forward to shield buffs on Wolf/Aurora, paired with M energy changes looks like the next playthrough will be more high-tech focused.

The only loadout that works perfectly with 3 sizes of energy hardpoints is Beams, and on the Apogee that was bad before and now it's passable. Plasma Cannon build doesn't profit because that works better leaving the other two empty. It's not that big a buff.
Maybe the Squalls perform much worse now so you need a Graviton in front to knock shields down easier. That's the first thing I thought when I read the change. Ion Beam isn't a big help since the target will either have shields up, or die from HIL.
Don't think there is a bad choice between ion beam/graviton beam/pulse laser in the frontal M (all work with either HIL or plasma, plasma doesn't need empty front mounts with Apogee flux stats).
Apogee without SO has real trouble with finishing, now ion can flame out engines after squall or plasma gets some hard flux on enemies.
Ion also helps a lot with keeping large threats down, graviton is just good support for anything, pulse laser is consistent cheap shield suppression and DPS against weak hulls.
Really excited to see how the changes work out in practice.

Don't forget that medium energy also has a large energy weapon for double flux cost in it. Makes Apogee a very good brawler.
No reason to use heavy blaster if you can get plasma, or plasma+0.8 pulse laser.
Heavy blaster's 500 range also sucks super hard with 60 base speed for a main weapon.

Range of a capital(thanks to Advanced Optics), 20k flux capacity, <0.5 shield efficiency... I'd say it starts to rival the Champion for 20% less DP.
It doesn't have the range of a capital, why would it? 1400/980 beam/plasma base with ITU, vs 1600/1120 on a capital.
At 18 DP it was also an alternative to the Champion, much better shields+cheaper squalls vs stronger beam+ballistics+stronger armor.
Now it takes a shield/squall efficiency hit for the DP cost but has more versatile loadouts.

Don't think the burst PDs are worth counting as Apogee buffs, IMO they were plain bad before and still aren't good there.
0.7 shields, active flares, plenty of slots for PD laser/IR pulse/ion pulser and maybe advanced optics for frontal beams.
Extra OP is better used on ECCM, extended racks or just more flux.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 01:39:31 PM by Draba »
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #400 on: April 13, 2023, 07:53:04 AM »

It doesn't have the range of a capital, why would it?

Advanced Optics.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #401 on: April 13, 2023, 08:12:42 AM »

Excited to hear you're entering the final playtesting phase Alex.

In the list of changes, I think I was most struck by the large buff to Aurora shields (33%), but upon further thinking, it was probably warranted.

Just taking a look at the "fast ships with systems that make the ship go faster" high tech roster, the  new Aurora seems to look better. Prior to the buff, Aurora and Fury had basically the same shield capacity with a 50% DP difference in between. Now Aurora is about 50% more shield base, and 33% at max vents, for that extra 50% DP.

Code
DP Ship     Base Eff. Shield     Max Caps    Flux Dissipation  Time to vent
5 Wolf 0.95.1a    2,812            5,312           150-250        4.5-14.1 sec
5 Wolf 0.96a      3,214            6,071           150-250        4.5-14.1 sec
8 Scarab          4,166            7,000           250-350        3.5-9 sec
8 Shrike          7,714            13,428          350-550        4.9-13.4 sec
12 Medusa         10,000           16,666          400-600        5-12.5 sec
20 Fury           12,857           21,428          600-900        5-12.5 sec
30 Aurora 0.95.1a 13,750           21,250          800-1100       5-10.6 sec
30 Aurora 0.96a   18,333           28,333          800-1100       5-10.6 sec
45 Odyssey        15,000           25,000          1000-1500      5-12.5 sec

At this point, the only one that really stands out to me is the Odyssey, in terms of following a progression in terms of defensive stats.  On the other hand, it is a capital with large mounts and 2 fighter wings - but these defensive statistics look to me like the Odyssey is meant to be a stand off ship and not get in close, when compared to ships in the smaller classes.  It's slower (70 vs 80, can't back off as well), bigger and easier to hit, so it needs to rely on its range more if it has worse defensive stats than the Aurora.

Aurora is arguably significantly stronger defensively than its capital counterpart now.  Aurora has 8000 hull and 800 armor backing its shields up, while the Odyssey only has 10,000 and 1000 armor at a 50% increase in DP.   It is also kind of weird that the true standoff high tech ship, the Astral, has the same hull as the Odyssey, only 100 less armor, but 20,000 effective shields base (and 36,666 max vents).  Admittedly, Odyssey is speed 70 while the Astral is only speed 30.

Is it normal for carriers to be tankier than their brawling ship counterparts?  I know that is not true in the Onslaught/Legion comparison.  Doesn't seem true in Eagle/Heron comparison (if they are both 20 DP now).  Depending on if you count Damper Field or not, Mora may or may not be tankier than a Dominator though.  Hammerhead is tankier than a Drover.  Condor isn't as tanky as an Enforcer.

Anyways, just food for thought.

Edit: Changed max vents to max caps in table.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 11:47:04 AM by Hiruma Kai »
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Princess_of_Evil

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #402 on: April 13, 2023, 08:53:01 AM »

Don't forget that medium energy also has a large energy weapon for double flux cost in it. Makes Apogee a very good brawler.
No reason to use heavy blaster if you can get plasma, or plasma+0.8 pulse laser.
Heavy blaster's 500 range also sucks super hard with 60 base speed for a main weapon.
It can be better to have two plasma guns rather than one. :p
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #403 on: April 13, 2023, 09:30:15 AM »

A few assorted responses, before I get back to playtesting :)

Re: front shield conversion etc - I'll take another look at the OP costs.


Something must have happened to the Eagle if playtesting is reverting the most important change: speed. I was excited to try the faster Eagle because that was my #1 complaint. I figured the 18 DP would be the first thing to go if it needed walked back but I didn't expect the speed change. I'm sure the meta game has changed with new weapons and hullmod options but it being nearly "too strong" at 20 DP is kind of surprising.

It's still in the "keep an eye on it" stage and I particularly want to use it during my playtesting. But it's a combination of things - the direct buffs, the Graviton change, the Ion Beam change, Missile Autoloader, cheaper burst PD. It all added up to something that felt like a bit much in actual practice.


Apogee change is actually quite a shock. It's still in a hardpoint and the Large and Medium won't really converge but that's a lot more potential firepower vs. current.

The goal is to give it more flexibility in loadouts. If the overall power is out of line, then it could definitely be pulled back in different ways - an extra point of DP, a bit less flux capacity, something like that.


"Medusa: adjusted misaligned engine nozzle" - truly the unheralded diamond in the rough. :D

Yes! There were a few other critical fixes of this nature that I think didn't make it in the notes.


you should probably check the code for shipEngineAPI.disable(boolean permanent)
if there's only one engine left, it won't disable the engine, not even permanently

The last ship engine can't be disabled while an engine-boosting system is on. (This isn't the right thread for this, though; let's keep it on-topic.)


Do we know the s-mod bonus for insulated engines yet? Brawler (TT) is going to be meta as hell.

An extra 100% engine health and the sensor profile reduction is changed to 90% (from 50%).


Oh wow heavy ballistic integration can get a bonus  ;D

It doesn't! Not every hullmod has s-mod effects, and in particular ones that are just hull features and can't be installed on arbitrary ships don't have any.


(Militarized Subsystems) Well, now it's an expensive hullmod that feels like it "doesn't do anything" - and if you have Bulk Transport skill, it actually makes the ship slower. Maybe it could be cheaper since it comes with its own drawbacks anyway.

Not every build is going to have industry! The hullmod basically exists to negate the penalties of civgrade at a cost. Perhaps it could be cheaper OP-wise, though; definitely open to that possibility.


CampaignUIRenderingListener is very nice, but i can't help but think the only use for it is drawing overlays, as you don't ever know if you have the panel you want to edit up and where.

Pretty much the main thing it's intended for! Modding the core UI is, as you say, much more involved.


Does this mean you can pick up the goods, as long as your standing with the colony is above -50 or does the mission won't be offered, if your standing with the colony is too low?
(Right now this mission can always be offered but you can't pick up the goods, if your standing with the faction is at -25 or below.)

Ahh, thank you - I'll take a look and make sure it's doing the right thing. Good chance it might not be.

That is still on the list for the playtesting? (Or is it done and not worth mentioning?)

Ah! I remember fixing this, so it looks like this just didn't make it into the notes. Thank you for the reminder, though!


I’m curious to know if the new autoloader plus sabots is going to be a viable alternative to the needler for frigates.

The needler has been king for flux and OP efficiency, and everything that can’t get it feels a bit hampered.

That will be interesting to see, though even with the Autoloader, you've got, what, 9 Sabots? Nothing to sneeze at, but not something that couldn't get spent in a hurry, either. With Missile Spec and EMR you'd get up to 15 but that's a *lot* of investment for - at that point - diminishing returns.

Two fullerene spools now, but shouldn't some of the other colony items appear in the core worlds as well?
(Well I guess accessibility boosters to prevent permanent shipping shortages are needed more)

I don't particularly want the core to provide *all* the items; that steals some thunder from exploration. I could even see removing the spool from Umbra and replacing it with story-point "improvements" at the spaceport. Hmm.

(Yeah, exactly.)


Just taking a look at the "fast ships with systems that make the ship go faster" high tech roster, the  new Aurora seems to look better. Prior to the buff, Aurora and Fury had basically the same shield capacity with a 50% DP difference in between. Now Aurora is about 50% more shield base, and 33% at max vents, for that extra 50% DP.

Cool - thank you for doing the math!


At this point, the only one that really stands out to me is the Odyssey, in terms of following a progression in terms of defensive stats.  On the other hand, it is a capital with large mounts and 2 fighter wings - but these defensive statistics look to me like the Odyssey is meant to be a stand off ship and not get in close, when compared to ships in the smaller classes.  It's slower (70 vs 80, can't back off as well), bigger and easier to hit, so it needs to rely on its range more if it has worse defensive stats than the Aurora.

Aurora is arguably significantly stronger defensively than its capital counterpart now.  Aurora has 8000 hull and 800 armor backing its shields up, while the Odyssey only has 10,000 and 1000 armor at a 50% increase in DP.   It is also kind of weird that the true standoff high tech ship, the Astral, has the same hull as the Odyssey, only 100 less armor, but 20,000 effective shields base (and 36,666 max vents).  Admittedly, Odyssey is speed 70 while the Astral is only speed 30.

Is it normal for carriers to be tankier than their brawling ship counterparts?  I know that is not true in the Onslaught/Legion comparison.  Doesn't seem true in Eagle/Heron comparison (if they are both 20 DP now).  Depending on if you count Damper Field or not, Mora may or may not be tankier than a Dominator though.  Hammerhead is tankier than a Drover.  Condor isn't as tanky as an Enforcer.

Anyways, just food for thought.

Design-wise, the Oddyssey is a battlecruiser, so that checks out - it trades defenses for firepower and moblity. I wouldn't call it a brawling ship - if it gets close, it probably wants to overwhelm quickly rather than get stuck in for a long time against equal opposition.
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Vanshilar

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #404 on: April 13, 2023, 09:38:51 AM »

At this point, the only one that really stands out to me is the Odyssey, in terms of following a progression in terms of defensive stats.  On the other hand, it is a capital with large mounts and 2 fighter wings - but these defensive statistics look to me like the Odyssey is meant to be a stand off ship and not get in close, when compared to ships in the smaller classes.  It's slower (70 vs 80, can't back off as well), bigger and easier to hit, so it needs to rely on its range more if it has worse defensive stats than the Aurora.

On the other hand, the Odyssey is the only one that *can* act in a more standoff manner, since it has 2 Large Energies and a Large Synergy, as well as 2 fighter slots. All the others are limited to smalls and mediums which don't provide much standoff offensive power, so they're more or less forced to close in and take damage in order for them to kill other ships. Thus they need more flux capacity to function than the Odyssey.
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