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Author Topic: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers  (Read 2348 times)

NikoTheGuyDude

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Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« on: January 19, 2021, 12:36:02 PM »

I'm pretty sure every single starsector player has been blindsided by scavengers at least once, usually unfairly. Such a crucial mechanic that can often make or break a situation should REALLY have some kind of explanation or way for a player to learn about it without having to ask people about it.
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Wyvern

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2021, 12:49:56 PM »

What, you mean the way they can suddenly go pirate?

Alas, that's just one of many transponder-shenanigans that the AI can do and the player can't.  (See, for another example, smuggler fleets running transponder-off and just getting ignored by patrols, or the Pather sabotage fleets that register as independent...)

I'd really like for those mechanics to be consistent; it somewhat kills immersion for me every time it's made obvious that the player doesn't follow the same rules as the NPC fleets.
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Histidine

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2021, 06:11:33 PM »

The scav-to-pirate mechanic is a pretty nasty trap to spring on people who don't know it exists (surprise! you're now in combat with a much larger fleet!)
It would be better if the resulting pirate fleet could simply extort the player instead of potentially guaranteeing the death of any fleet that hasn't been built to escape.
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Embolism

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 12:33:37 AM »

The Luddic Path's propensity to ask for "tithes" would make more sense on pirates than Luddics, I feel. And yeah I get scavengers are supposed to be opportunists who would stab you in the back if they think no one's looking, but if that's the idea I would expect them to be a lot more cautious about who they try to jump.
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Jabroni

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2021, 07:23:08 AM »

I'd really like for those mechanics to be consistent; it somewhat kills immersion for me every time it's made obvious that the player doesn't follow the same rules as the NPC fleets.
It would also make smuggling even more interesting. The player would have an opportunity to sneak into planet with transponder off, while patrols are after NPC ships, it's actually a tactic used by real smugglers.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2021, 07:39:58 AM »

Wish the autopause mod's functionality was in vanilla. Scavs start pursuing you and bam! Paused with an indicator to the scav fleet that triggered it.
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Serenitis

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2021, 08:27:26 AM »

Maybe scavenger fleets "intending" to turn hostile could be telegraphed by expanding red rings (similar sensor rings/pings) coming from the fleet in question?
A grey independant fleet with red pusing rings around it might be noticable enough.
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Rackminster

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2021, 05:42:23 AM »

Having scavengers suddenly flip to pirate doesn't bother me.  It was a shock the first time it happened, but ever since then I've avoided any large fleet I see when I'm in deep space.  If I see one change course to come towards me, I always assume the worst.

I think it works for pirates and could work out as a mechanic more broadly applied - like you bump into a "Hegemony" patrol that threatens to attack if you don't pay up ... and in turn those fake cops might get spotted and chased off by the real ones.

Pirates on the high seas didn't always sail around with their colors displayed for everyone to see a mile off.  Some pretended to be friendly ships or sailed the wrong colors to throw people off. 

I think the bigger issue is that these random flips can mean a sudden "Game Over" where you're unexpectedly in a no-win scenario.  It'd be more fitting if they extorted money or cargo from you instead of just ending you.  I'm constantly trying to use Comms to negotiate my way out of a fight, and every time they just laugh at me.
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Yubbin

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2021, 10:18:05 AM »

Having scavengers suddenly flip to pirate doesn't bother me.  It was a shock the first time it happened, but ever since then I've avoided any large fleet I see when I'm in deep space.  If I see one change course to come towards me, I always assume the worst.
I think this mechanic is boring, one of the best responses to it is basically "Oh, this bad thing can happen, so from now on I'll always avoid it." I agree there should be more nuance to this.
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Kriby

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2021, 12:14:06 PM »

I haven't really been bitten too badly by this, but I don't really mind if the pirates fake their transponder and surprise ambush you. Just seems like if you're not on your guard and expect everybody to play nice you have it coming? Also, losing a fleet here and there really isn't a game ender, and playing with the full expectation of winning every encounter sounds sort of boring to me. I guess it's sort of annoying to be without a sweet fleet as the game ramps up into insanity, but that's supposed to change in the next version anyway.
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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2021, 02:21:03 PM »

The mechanic would also be helped a lot if you could do other things with the scavengers than just fight them.  Right now all they do is either fight you to the death or force you to fight you to the death over debris.

Like more often than not scavengers should try to trade with the player when you run into them so that you don't automatically have to flee whenever you see them and you can't destroy them.  These are usually relatively fair opportunities.  "Hey want some of this salvage we aren't going to be able to fit in our holds?"  Could also be the other direction too, "Are your holds full?  We could take some of that off your hands for a fair price so you can stay out longer."

Other times maybe they need supplies or fuel and they'll ask for a trade, then demand a trade, then extort/attack the player if they keep refusing.

If the player's fleet is severely undergunned, say they're mostly tankers/freighters, then the scavengers should be much more prone to extort the player.

On the other hand, if the player's fleet is stronger than the scavengers they should be able to extort the scavengers without having to fight them.
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Thaago

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2021, 03:02:53 PM »

I really like the idea of expanding the interactions that players have with scavenger fleets. Right now once a player has seen one turn hostile (or been caught by one!) its generally speaking just a good idea to stay away all the time (unless the player wants to hunt them, but thats different). If the interactions were sometimes positive it creates a more nuanced situation.
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Kriby

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2021, 03:26:08 PM »

I really thought the attacking "scavenger" fleets were just pirates faking their transponder. Do actual scavengers also attack the player when they're at advantage? Lots of nuance in this game, dang.
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SCC

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Re: Add some sort of indication of the behavior of scavengers
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2021, 09:27:39 AM »

Independents are just pirates that didn't *** off everyone yet, really.