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[Alex]

Still, a fleet with 5 officers facing 10 pirate ships without and being told it's a challenging fight... hm.

Then don't phrase it that way? Could even just not display the value at all, just keep the same "You gain 3,000XP" message after the battle, and add in a tip saying something like "The smaller your fleet is relative to your opponent, the more XP you'll gain from battles."

As has been said, this isn't something that the player is meant to be trying to fine-tune.

Still need to make the player fairly aware of it, though! I'm not really sold on the benefits of not counting officers here; they're so much better than without that I think it's trying to fix something that wouldn't actually be a problem. I mean, what you're saying makes sense, but what's currently in the game I think also works, and I kind of want to just stop messing with it

@Zelnik: I'm sorry that the way I'm going about it is causing resentment for you! I don't think I can really do anything differently here, though; it's a pretty sizeable project. All I can do is work on the game in the best way I'm able to, and try to provide (hopefully enjoyable!) versions of the game along the way.

[Zelnik]

Forgive my misunderstanding, It's 'current' but it's not 'complete'

Everyone and anyone can see that. I had fun with the game, absolutely, but I just can't be thrilled or hyped anymore because it just takes too long between releases. To add insult to injury, those releases are further and further between one another to the point of entire game could be developed between those releases.

I am not being disrespectful here. I am just trying to express my displeasure in as respectful a way as I can. For me, it's gotten old. It would have been better if he held off on the patch notes until the patch was ready to release. It could be another year before we see it...and what then? Another two years before the one after that?

I get he is a one man gang, but I am also one person trying to express my feelings based on a product purchased incomplete 8 years ago. At least I am not screeching about his lack of skill or talent (i'm not), but I CAN express that 'eight years and you aren't even in 1.0 is a bit much.'

[Zelnik]

Still, a fleet with 5 officers facing 10 pirate ships without and being told it's a challenging fight... hm.

Then don't phrase it that way? Could even just not display the value at all, just keep the same "You gain 3,000XP" message after the battle, and add in a tip saying something like "The smaller your fleet is relative to your opponent, the more XP you'll gain from battles."

As has been said, this isn't something that the player is meant to be trying to fine-tune.

Still need to make the player fairly aware of it, though! I'm not really sold on the benefits of not counting officers here; they're so much better than without that I think it's trying to fix something that wouldn't actually be a problem. I mean, what you're saying makes sense, but what's currently in the game I think also works, and I kind of want to just stop messing with it

@Zelnik: I'm sorry that the way I'm going about it is causing resentment for you! I don't think I can really do anything differently here, though; it's a pretty sizeable project. All I can do is work on the game in the best way I'm able to, and try to provide (hopefully enjoyable!) versions of the game along the way.

I appreciate the response, I really do.

It's better that you realize both the good and the bad consequences of such a long development time. At some point people will just say "if not now...then when? If not soon, then ever?"

The product is great, the time it is requiring is not. How can I be exited for something that hasn't manifested in eight years? If one person is willing to voice it, more may in the future, so be prepared for it.

[Alex]

I hear what you're saying! I don't mean to discount it, but it's one of those things where... there's no useful action I can take in response to this information, whether voiced by you or someone else. (Well, no action that wouldn't compromise the final product. I'm assuming you wouldn't I rather tie up a few loose ends real quick and call it 1.0. Besides, I don't want that.)

So! I'll just hope that when the next version is released, you (and others of a similar mind) will find it to your liking

[Zaizai]

I hear what you're saying! I don't mean to discount it, but it's one of those things where... there's no useful action I can take in response to this information, whether voiced by you or someone else. (Well, no action that wouldn't compromise the final product. I'm assuming you wouldn't I rather tie up a few loose ends real quick and call it 1.0. Besides, I don't want that.)

So! I'll just hope that when the next version is released, you (and others of a similar mind) will find it to your liking

Quick question: have you considered making smaller updates over the course of the year, while you work on the "big bad update"? I'm talking about relatively small things like those already included in these patch notes, like adding a ship here and there, balancing some weapons, adding small stuff etc. 
While not substantial and hype inducing, they could help keeping the playerbase engaged and speaking about the game to their friends/making youtube videos etc etc (which of course, means more sales for you). 
I personally have no trouble waiting, however i do find myself picking the game for a bit, and then forgetting about it until i randomly remember months later and check about the update progress. If even 20% of the current patch notes were separated into smaller updates every couple months or something, it could make many people happier and keep the community strong imho. 

[Morrokain]

Quick question: have you considered making smaller updates over the course of the year, while you work on the "big bad update"? I'm talking about relatively small things like those already included in these patch notes, like adding a ship here and there, balancing some weapons, adding small stuff etc. 
While not substantial and hype inducing, they could help keeping the playerbase engaged and speaking about the game to their friends/making youtube videos etc etc (which of course, means more sales for you). 
I personally have no trouble waiting, however i do find myself picking the game for a bit, and then forgetting about it until i randomly remember months later and check about the update progress. If even 20% of the current patch notes were separated into smaller updates every couple months or something, it could make many people happier and keep the community strong imho.

He could, but I think that would only further slow down the big update. It's not one of those things where you can just throw some extra stuff in there - at least most of the time. He'd probably have to fork the whole project each time, then there is polishing that forked update, making it consistent with the big update when things in the big update change pre-mini-update, etc.

So considering that, I'm not sure it is worth it. Idk, just my opinion though and I'm making assumptions there.

[Alex]

Ah - it's actually quite difficult to split things out like that. A lot of things need other things to either work at all or "make sense" mechanically. The things that don't aren't usually all *that* interesting; not enough to warrant an update or to make people happy with one.

Also, keeping separate branches - and making a release - is a lot of work, the latter especially because of testing, playtesting, and follow-on support. Plus some changes could be mod-breaking etc. At a rough guess, even if putting out an update every couple of months was reasonably doable over say the current release cycle, it'd add multiple months worth of work.

(Edit: ninja'ed etc)

[AsterPiano]

While not substantial and hype inducing, they could help keeping the playerbase engaged and speaking about the game to their friends/making youtube videos etc etc (which of course, means more sales for you).

If even 20% of the current patch notes were separated into smaller updates every couple months or something, it could make many people happier and keep the community strong imho.

Personally, I find the modding and Tournaments already do a good job of adding 'small updates' to my experience of the game and keeping the community strong.
With the actual base game updates, I think of each version as almost a whole new game. The added features are designed with each other in mind and I think that adding them in bit by bit would decrease the overall impact of those changes as they wouldn't quite be able to 'play off each other' and be used to their full potential.
I also think more frequent game updates would make it more difficult for modders to keep everything up to date with the current release.

(Also ninja'ed! But still want to voice my opinion)

[FooF]

Everyone has a right to their opinion. I've gotten waaaaaay more than the $10 I paid back in...[checks] wow, 2013. I've sunk a thousand-plus hours into the game (I shudder to think what the actual number is, and potentially what I could have done "better" with that time!)

That being said, the game has delivered more than a $10 experience since the beginning. Patches like 0.8 and 0.9 basically re-invented the game with as much content as they brought. I imagine 0.95 will be similar. Yes, the waiting sucks but I currently have 18 runs on 0.9a, each probably 15-20 hours so it's not like I haven't "gotten my money's worth." I don't find the game boring yet, which is a testament to how well-designed it is.

I'm not going to name some other games that have also been in development 8+ years, have hundreds of millions in crowdfunding and still don't even have a true playable product that remotely resembles what was promised 8 years ago. It's little solace, I'm sure, but it could be a lot worse.

[Histidine]

How can I be exited for something that hasn't manifested in eight years?

Thermonuclear take time:

Getting excited (or worse, "hyped") over the game to come in the distant future (hypothetical complete Starsector) instead of the game we already have (Starsector 0.9.1) or the not-yet-out game with visible progress on it (Starsector 0.95a as indicated by the blog posts and patch notes) contributes to the incentives that get you something like Anthem. Or Star Citizen.

More generally: For the purposes of what's beneficial for the customer, excitement is not in itself good (nor bad) and building it should not be a goal.


For me, there is no eight-year wait and there won't be. It is far more accurate and useful to describe my user-side experience as me getting a slightly fun thing for $10 at first, then a year or two later it becomes somewhat more fun for free; repeat a few times. Each time there's a vague promise of updates still to come that will make it better still, which gets more defined as the blog posts on new features come out, but I have no great requirement for future improvements to enjoy the copy I already have.
(Though I should note that this process being enjoyable relied heavily on the strong Starsector modding community, which isn't something that had any certainty of existing)

More speculative stuff

I see the major relevant risks of the long development cycle as:
- Alex gets tired of the project and drops out
- Community disperses, needs to be rebuilt at 'official' launch

#2 doesn't appear to be a risk currently. #1 doesn't look like it either (sure hope not!), but I can't tell from the outside.
Of course, the most direct way to speed up the dev cycle – crunching – is going to be directly counterproductive for #1. Hiring a new dev with Sseth money imposes significant onboarding costs at this late stage, although this could be mitigated if the person was already familiar with the game's innards.

(Alex: Have you ever contemplated contracting one of the major modders here to help you and/or David with development? I can list a few names (not including me though, I'd turn down any offer that was made) who I think would be available and good at it. There's another notable space indie game out now (AI War II) where circumstances led to the dev relying heavily on two volunteers-turned-contractors to get the current release out, so I was wondering if this model might be worth considering elsewhere.)

[close]

[Silveressa]

Plus some changes could be mod-breaking etc.

One thing that would be kind of awesome for these large updates, is if you could somehow get the mod relevant data on the patch change to the modders ahead of time, so they can be working on updating their mods to the new patch when it releases, rather than fans of their mods having to wait for x# of days after the new patch before their mods are updating. (Probably not realistic/feasible I admit, but a gal can dream!  )

[SonnaBanana]

How well would this work?

Spend story point to do a convoy raid. This is only permitted against fleets which are too large to disengage.

When the battle starts, the entire enemy fleet is deployed at the center of the map in a wide formation (i.e. ship to ship distance isn't too close). All enemy ships suffer a speed penalty while the convoy raid is on going. Player ships deploy from the top. Enemy forces cannot lose CR during the raid.

Player can only spend a limited number of DP, destruction of ships on either side does not give any DP to the player.

Deployment point distribution should be biased in the enemy's favor through every factor possible, so there will no worries about player steamrolling over the near-immobilized fleet with a squadron of multiple Odysseys and Conquests.

The raid ends when no enemy ships remains, whether from passing (same as in retreats) through the top of the map or being destroyed. Then it goes back to the encounter screen.

[Alex]

Thermonuclear take time:

Getting excited (or worse, "hyped") over the game to come in the distant future (hypothetical complete Starsector) instead of the game we already have (Starsector 0.9.1) or the not-yet-out game with visible progress on it (Starsector 0.95a as indicated by the blog posts and patch notes) contributes to the incentives that get you something like Anthem. Or Star Citizen.

More generally: For the purposes of what's beneficial for the customer, excitement is not in itself good (nor bad) and building it should not be a goal.

In general agreement, though I don't so much mind excitement for the next release! But yeah, it's so easy to get excited about something that doesn't exist yet, because one can imagine it as exactly the thing they want. And then of course everyone excited is imagining something quite different from each other, and reality is bound to be a disappointment for many people since - no matter how good! - it can never hope match *all* of those expectations. Going back to "next release" stuff, there's some danger of a let-down there too, of course, but there are enough specifics about it (from the blog post and patch notes) that it's at least not as fraught as it would be without that.

I see the major relevant risks of the long development cycle as:
- Alex gets tired of the project and drops out

... #1 doesn't look like it either (sure hope not!), but I can't tell from the outside.

(Yeah, definitely not! I mean, I suppose I'd be expected to say that regardless? But, yeah, I'm excited to be working on Starsector! It's like, the things we're finally doing now is things I've wanted to do for literally 10+ years, and they're finally here, or almost here.)

Of course, the most direct way to speed up the dev cycle – crunching – is going to be directly counterproductive for #1. Hiring a new dev with Sseth money imposes significant onboarding costs at this late stage, although this could be mitigated if the person was already familiar with the game's innards.

(Alex: Have you ever contemplated contracting one of the major modders here to help you and/or David with development? I can list a few names (not including me though, I'd turn down any offer that was made) who I think would be available and good at it. There's another notable space indie game out now (AI War II) where circumstances led to the dev relying heavily on two volunteers-turned-contractors to get the current release out, so I was wondering if this model might be worth considering elsewhere.)

(Yeah, I've considered that! Though without specifics as to who. That would likely be easier than brining in someone new entirely. But, yeah, as you say, at this late stage, I'm not so sure that makes sense anyway. David's been able to do more on Starsector recently, btw, which I'm super excited about! Just a week ago, he wrapped up implementing one of the major story missions. It was very cool to see it in-game and experience it more as a player, since I didn't know all the ins and outs going in...)

One thing that would be kind of awesome for these large updates, is if you could somehow get the mod relevant data on the patch change to the modders ahead of time, so they can be working on updating their mods to the new patch when it releases, rather than fans of their mods having to wait for x# of days after the new patch before their mods are updating. (Probably not realistic/feasible I admit, but a gal can dream!  )

That's why the "Modding" section of the patch notes tends to be pretty detailed and more meticulously kept! (Though that's missing some things too, I'm sure, but they ought to be more minor.) And, IIRC, I've been publishing the updated API javadoc some time ahead of the release the last couple of times. Actually getting a build into modder hands early, though, I don't think is practical. And besides, modders operate on their own schedule; it doesn't seem reasonable to expect them to do that work synced up to a release, and, frankly, I'm also glad to get some pure-vanilla feedback for a while after the release, too, so that also works out!

How well would this work?

Spend story point to do a convoy raid. ...

Hmm - details aside, "spend a story point to get to attack and loot some civilian ships in an enemy fleet" sounds like it could be very fun. ... let me note this down; not sure if I'll get to it or not, but just in general, I like the idea itself.

[Piemanlives]

Alex there is another issue I was wondering you could take care of.

Though more relevant for mods, if there is a ship variant (either player made or not) that requires a weapon that is no longer present it crashes the entire game on startup. It should be possible, from what others have said, to leave the relevant slot for that weapon empty if it finds the weapon it is looking for no longer exists then popup a warning where the player can see it. Perhaps on the main menu once the preload is complete, the mission screen when starting up a scenario that includes the relevant ship (requiring you to acknowledge the warning before starting the mission) and in the campaign refit screen when selecting the relevant variant in the autofitter.

[pairedeciseaux]

Ships/systems:

• Added Fury-class light cruiser, high tech
• Added Champion-class heavy cruiser, midline

Alex, would you mind sharing screenshots of the in-game spec-sheet for both of these new ships? Or is it still material?