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Author Topic: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla  (Read 12297 times)

AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2020, 03:12:17 PM »

Good thing others reminded me because I've been *** on Heavy burst laser as the worst energy medium and completely forgot about Ion pulser, that's how much I care about it. I can't remember ever using that on something, apart from testing the weapon when it came out. I think I put one on Aurora (front hardpoint), I was so damn disappointed, one of the few weapons that bring up the question ''why is this a thing?''. So yeah at least the Heavy burst laser has SOME use, even tho I hardly used it, but Ion pulser takes the cake.

Interesting. I quite enjoy the Ion Pulser. It's quite niche, for sure, but it does lend itself to energy-based SO builds fairly well. My personal usage of it extends to a Wolf armed with one, along with Sabots and an IR Pulse Laser for sustained damage, which I had moderate success with. The concept of the weapon I enjoy, so I can't say I find it "bad". However I admit I don't use it often, so perhaps there's something to be said about that. I think it's the range, I see it very much in the same category as the Assault Chaingun - which I use equally if not more rarely - in that it looks like it's designed for Safety Overrides and not much else. Phase ships (that can wield it) do well with it though.
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Igncom1

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2020, 03:17:39 PM »

I find myself hesitant to use any ion weapon over more standard weapons.

I know the idea is that while ballistics have KE and HE damage guns (and frag), energy weapons have general purpose energy damage and ion damage as support. But I can't wrap my mind around simply not simply slapping on a tac laser or graviton beam instead.

Occasionally I'll use ion cannons due to not having much else to equip but that's that.
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TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #77 on: February 28, 2020, 03:40:46 PM »

Ion pulser is not completely pointless, but imo it fails at being a good SO weapon.
Low sustained dps, low damage against armor. Low efficiency against shields AND unable to bypass omni shields (need 1 fast projectile for that, not shower of lesser ones). Yet too expensive OP/flux/slot-wise to be mere annoyance to target. Also takes too much attention for something of so limited effect (you can't afford to safely autofire it due to flux spike and potential clip waste).
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pedro1_1

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #78 on: February 28, 2020, 03:51:56 PM »

Ion pulser has a role on fast ships that can bypass Shields using another ship as a distraction, and then there's Harbinger which can disable a Paragon from behind
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AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #79 on: February 28, 2020, 06:00:05 PM »

I'm not sure, I find the Ion Pulser's overall damage output quite respectable. It's only 75 non-EMP damage per shot (exactly halfway between the IR and regular Pulse Lasers), but its burst DPS is incredible. For 20 base shots (up to 30 with Expanded Mags) I think it's decent.
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pedro1_1

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #80 on: February 28, 2020, 06:08:40 PM »

I'm not sure, I find the Ion Pulser's overall damage output quite respectable. It's only 75 non-EMP damage per shot (exactly halfway between the IR and regular Pulse Lasers), but its burst DPS is incredible. For 20 base shots (up to 30 with Expanded Mags) I think it's decent.

The thing about ipn pulser is that's not a "DPS" weapon, but a "Remove this thing from the fight, so It can return fore" weapon, a Paragon that can't shot and can't move is about as good as a dead Paragon, it's pne of the reasons I use it so much on the Harbinger, since the ship can bypass Shields, and the weapon can remove the ship from combat
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TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2020, 06:22:54 PM »

Emp disables don't last that long, while Ion Pulser equipped ship isn't likely to also carry other heavy weapons (missiles don't count since emp does not compromise enemy shield, you need something capable of chewing through shield too).
The only really good use for emp is to disable most guns on enemy ship in sync and vent in their face. Obviously, only player can do this.
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AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2020, 09:23:51 PM »

The only really good use for emp is to disable most guns on enemy ship in sync and vent in their face. Obviously, only player can do this.

Engines though. ;) There's a lot to be said for the tactic of disabling a ship's engines so you can better position yourself (and your allies) around. Doubly effective against ships that have a mobility-based system, or otherwise rely on mobility to do well in a fight.
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SCC

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2020, 10:49:48 PM »

I don't use Ion Pulser, because I don't use SO much at all. If I did, however, ion pulsers would be invaluable in making my ships more survivable, because a ship with all its weaponry disabled might as well not be there. You only ever need a single one, but it disables pretty much everything, if it hits the hull.
On the other hand, I have genuinely never used Heavy Burst Laser. I have used mining lasers, mining blasters and other crap weaponry, but never HBL. Or Paladin PD.

AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2020, 11:34:14 PM »

I don't use Ion Pulser, because I don't use SO much at all.

And I rarely use it for the same reason. The Wolf build I mentioned was not an SO build though, if it helps.

On the other hand, I have genuinely never used Heavy Burst Laser. I have used mining lasers, mining blasters and other crap weaponry, but never HBL. Or Paladin PD.

I'm trying to think of a time I've used the Heavy Burst Laser or Paladin too, and it's not coming to me. ??? As far as medium point defense weapons go, the HBL kinda pales in comparison to Flak and Dual Flak - it's possible this fits the same "ballistic is better than energy" argument, but I'm not sure that's all there is to it.

There have been a few people calling out the HBL in this thread, and I really don't want to but I think I have to agree with them. Again, I can't put my finger on why, I just haven't ever found it desirable.

The Paladin is a very different kettle of fish though. That I hardly ever use because I hardly ever have the opportunity to use - that's on me because I'm a big fan of the early-game, so I don't dabble much in big capital-heavy fleets with Paragons and Odysseys etc. A large energy PD weapon has only limited ships it can really be utilized on by the player (just two in vanilla? (not counting stations or [REDACTED] of course)). Hehe, and no that's not an excuse for another ship with a large energy turret, but it's a highly niche weapon because of that.
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Thaago

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #85 on: February 29, 2020, 12:12:56 AM »

My issues with the HBL are that they are easily saturated, cost large amounts of flux, have poor sustained DPS, and poor efficiency. Fighters will flares will just ruin any ship that has them, as each one will dump ~1000 flux into the flares: integrated point defense AI is almost required to stop this from happening. But if I have IPDAI, I probably don't need to use the 11 OP, inefficient HBL when I could just use LRPD or burst pd.

Its a bit of a radical solution, but I would want to see burst PD and HBL converted to high dps, rapid fire frag burst beams. Would help with sparks and their armor melting ways as well!
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TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #86 on: February 29, 2020, 12:31:06 AM »

Its a bit of a radical solution, but I would want to see burst PD and HBL converted to high dps, rapid fire frag burst beams. Would help with sparks and their armor melting ways as well!

Yeah, mod weapons like this totally supersede Burst lasers without being overall overpowered.
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Serenitis

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #87 on: February 29, 2020, 05:24:03 AM »

....but never HBL. Or Paladin PD.
Same.
The small Burst Laser is better for a lower cost (both OP and flux), so I always prefer to use small energy mounts for PD wherever gives adequate cover and leave the medium energy mounts for ship-to-ship guns.
Downsizing the mounts is also something that happens a fair bit for medium energy, just because the the HBL is so underwhelming when you want PD.

The Paladin is fairly unique in that it has possibly the most restrictive usage options of any weapon in the game.
It's completely pointless in a hardpoint.
Of the two ships that can realistically mount it in turrets (Paragon & Odyssey), neither can realy use it without seriously undergunning themselves and undermining the whole point of fielding a capital.
If you put it in the Paragon's turrets, you've reduced its firepower by 50%, and restricted what's left to whatever you can point the entire ship at.
If you put it in one of the Odyssey's port turrets you again reduce its firepower by 50%, and if you put it in the starboard turret it's more-or-less useless as that side is facing away from most of the threats.

Paladin is not a bad weapon because it doesn't perform, as it's actually very good at PD. There's just no real opportunity to use it.
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Plantissue

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #88 on: February 29, 2020, 06:09:25 AM »

Ion Pulsar isn't that it is a bad weapon in itself, but that there aren't really any ships with that can make use of it. In most cases any ship that can effectively mount an Ion Pulsar is better served by a Heavy Blaster or Phase Lance or Mining Blaster or Antimatter Blaster in that role. Safety override ships work because they are flux efficient but Ion Pulsar is not so they need another soure of damage. It'll have to be a player controlled ship so the ship doesn't waste the shots. A more reliable alternative is Ion beam.

I've used Heavy Burst Laser on a Conquest. It is the only mount with the right arc to shoot down missiles at certain angles. Mostly useful against Hurrican which the Conquest is uniquely vulnerable against.

Paladin PD that only really works on a ship with lots of appropriately placed large mounts. Its relatively high range (Higher than Plasma Cannon or Autopulse Laser) works against it as it will shoot at non-PD targets first.
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Tackywheat1

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #89 on: February 29, 2020, 03:14:22 PM »

....but never HBL. Or Paladin PD.
Same.
The small Burst Laser is better for a lower cost (both OP and flux), so I always prefer to use small energy mounts for PD wherever gives adequate cover and leave the medium energy mounts for ship-to-ship guns.
Downsizing the mounts is also something that happens a fair bit for medium energy, just because the the HBL is so underwhelming when you want PD.

The Paladin is fairly unique in that it has possibly the most restrictive usage options of any weapon in the game.
It's completely pointless in a hardpoint.
Of the two ships that can realistically mount it in turrets (Paragon & Odyssey), neither can realy use it without seriously undergunning themselves and undermining the whole point of fielding a capital.
If you put it in the Paragon's turrets, you've reduced its firepower by 50%, and restricted what's left to whatever you can point the entire ship at.
If you put it in one of the Odyssey's port turrets you again reduce its firepower by 50%, and if you put it in the starboard turret it's more-or-less useless as that side is facing away from most of the threats.

Paladin is not a bad weapon because it doesn't perform, as it's actually very good at PD. There's just no real opportunity to use it.

Paladin is used in High tech Star Fortress drones :)
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