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[Gothars]

Problem:
At the moment, there is little reason to engage in risky battles. One major point of the whole CR/deployment-costs system was to encourage you to deploy only the minimum of forces you need to defeat the enemy, in order to generate more interesting battles. A good approach, however the system does not offer enough incentive to really work. Potential losses and damage cancel out and surpass the saved deployment costs on average, so steamrolling the enemy is still the most profitable option. I like going into risky fights anyway because it's more fun to me, but the truth is that its a stupid thing to do for campaign progression since the game only punishes me for it. A state where fun during combat and campaign progression disagree with each other seems unsatisfactory to me.
(Another, related factor is the relative invalidity of playing with small, elite combat fleet, as opposed to a simply big one. But this will hopefully be addressed by new engagement scenarios in the future.)


Here's my  idea:
Fighting battles where you are the inferior party gives you Battle Reputation. Battles that are almost even generate only a little, while you can gain enormous amounts by fighting against overwhelming odds.


Battle Reputation is a character stat that reflects how well known your character is in the Sector for his skill and valor as a battle captain and commander.


Now, what does it do? I'm basically open to ideas here, since I'm happy if the game recognizes the player's awesome combat achievements in any way. Here are some ideas:

- Special markets where you can "spent" your reputation on rare ships, weapons or other items.
-During an encounter your conversation options are influenced by your reputation, e.g. a patrol might be persuaded to let you go, or a pirate might turn to flee when you remind him what you did to his predecessor.
- Access to missions that require the "quest giver" to trust in your combat abilities.
-More officers wanting to join you.


I would't mind if this gets expanded into a more general "Reputation" that you can also earn by discovering new things or helping to resolve food crisis and stuff, but for me the important thing is that the game tells me clearly "Yes, give your very best in every fight!".

[LeopoldStotch]

So you mean like Mount and Blade?
Yeah I can see it working.

May tie in nicely with player-empire building and management. (if that ever becomes a real thing)

[Embolism]

Excellent idea. Really adds to player progression and breathes more life into the sector. I expect you might also lose battle reputation if you run from fights, etc. And perhaps the rare pirate captain might actually seek to fight you to make their own name if your reputation is high enough (the required rep range: with an upper limit: depending on the captain's personality).

As for a "general" reputation stat, personally I think that defeats the purpose (of making things interesting: a generic reputation is boring, not to mention done-to-death). I'd rather see separate reputations for things like discovery and helping with crises, each unlocking their own set of conversation options and goodies. People who are interested in your combat prowess probably won't be that impressed by your PhD in Archaeology.

[Gothars]

So you mean like Mount and Blade?

M&B did that? I can't even remember, he

[Cycerin]

I like this. I always missed something like EV/Elite's Combat Rating in SS, even if it's just for flavor purposes. If it can be used to influence NPC behavior as well, that's a bonus.

[nomadic_leader]

My additional ideas for this:

-Well if the main issue is lack of risky battles, there'd be a lot more risky battles if players and NPCs were forced to deploy their entire fleets in every battle and battle max size were eliminated. I posted about this extensively here. It really would solve a lot of problems in the game including this one.

But aside from the lack of risky battles, the battle rep would still be cool:

-A count of how many crew casualties of each rank you inflict vs how many you suffer should be kept in the character tab. This would be part of the battle reputation, and it would effect how expensive crew of different type are for you to buy, plus maybe some other things. If you were working for an authoritarian faction like diktat they wouldn't care if many of your troops die, but a humane faction might care.

-Officers should be able to die and if you lose a lot of officers new ones should ask for bigger salaries (there needs to be officer salaries btw). Or they become rarer.

-The battle reputation must decay over time. Otherwise players would get a bunch of it in early game, and then rest on their laurels while they stomp enemies risk-free in their giant mid/end game fleets.

My thoughts on what you've mentioned so far:

I do like the idea of NPCs interacting with you differently if word gets around that you're willing and able to take on fleets 3x your size. That improves immersion.

But why people would give you access to special markets and items just because you engage in risky battles? There is no ingame reason for it.  Starsector is fun so long as it is credible as a living world; otherwise it just becomes a bunch of rules. This breaks immersion to me and seems more like the "achievements" style of video games-- "Headshot 50 marmosets using  the revolver while wearing a monocle, and be rewarded with a special hat"

The quest unlocking thing is good- some factions would entrust special ops mission to their toughest agents. The reward for these quests could be those special items or markets and that would work here.

[Embolism]

But why people would give you access to special markets and items just because you engage in risky battles? There is no ingame reason for it.  Starsector is fun so long as it is credible as a living world; otherwise it just becomes a bunch of rules. This breaks immersion to me and seems more like the "achievements" style of video games-- "Headshot 50 marmosets using  the revolver while wearing a monocle, and be rewarded with a special hat"

Special markets I think wouldn't be unlocked by battle reputation alone, it would also require faction reputation. So if you got into a faction's good graces solely by trading it up then they probably won't let you access their most advanced military hardware if you have no reputation as a battle commander.

And I don't think battle reputation is "how willing are you to engage in risky battles" (regardless of the intent behind it)... it's simply how skillful people think you are as a commander. Winning a battle stacked against you would gain you lots of reputation for obvious reasons, but winning a larger number of even battles or even ones stacked in your favour would still get you to the same battle reputation, it just takes more time (and less risk).

[Gothars]

-Well if the main issue is lack of risky battles, there'd be a lot more risky battles if players and NPCs were forced to deploy their entire fleets in every battle and battle max size were eliminated.

Don't quite get that. As long as you have the choice to attack fleets that are bigger/stronger than you, there's need for a campaign motivation to do so. The in-combat motivation is that its fun, but outside its just counterproductive. How would deploying always everything change that for the better?

-A count of how many crew casualties of each rank you inflict vs how many you suffer should be kept in the character tab.

Yeah, I like it, especially the Reputation deduction for losing a lot of crew. And maybe for nasty things like destroying fleeing civilian ships, too.

-The battle reputation must decay over time. Otherwise players would get a bunch of it in early game, and then rest on their laurels while they stomp enemies risk-free in their giant mid/end game fleets.

Either that, or you spent it like money. Or the kind of bonuses you'd be interested in as a high level player costs just more BR that you can accumulate at low levels.

But why people would give you access to special markets and items just because you engage in risky battles?

Just imagine an old warrior who only parts from his sword ship when he sees his younger self in the player character. Basically any faction/individual with bellicistic tendencies might be impressed by your battle accomplishments, and thus more likely to sell you stuff.

[Inventor Raccoon]

Possibly have two different "fame" markets and bars. One is more about being a brutal and efficient killer, with bonuses for destroying retreating ships, bringing ships from 100% to 0 in only a few seconds, and completely wiping fleets.

Another is more of a capable and worthy commander, so you get bonuses for capturing a lot of objectives, joining in a fight where your ally is losing, doing bounties and such.

The first market would sell mostly offensive ships, so you'd find Wolves, Tempests, Dominators, Onslaughts, Medusas. The second market sells more specialized ships, like carriers, phase ships, Auroras, missile-focused ships.

[xenoargh]

I think it'd be interesting if the mechanic worked both ways and reflected the players' practical ethics, ala Karma from the Fallout series.

You're constantly rescuing the helpless, fighting against high odds, using weaker ships?  +Rep

You're constantly steamrolling everybody with giant advantages in DP, you always kill enemy fleets down to the last fleeing freighter, you're constantly attacking civilians with military ships to get their loot?  -Rep


Factions should have +Rep / -Rep; they aren't all morally equal, after all.  That'd add a mechanic; Factions could go back and forth on the Rep charts depending on how much they decided to do the expedient thing, rather than the right thing... just like the real world.

This reputation ought to work in your favor to offset Faction feeling, among other things; if you're a really dedicated +Rep player, maybe you get a break, the next time a huge fleet of a +Rep Faction catches you, or at least offers a bribe to look the other way.  Maybe Ob1-W@n gives you a ship, or even offers to join your fleet as a Captain (unique Captains w/ special perks would be awesome, btw).

If you're into -Rep play, perhaps you can get bribes out of enemy fleets, rather than face your terrifying wrath.  Maybe the evil -Rep factions all agree that you're all right, rather than constantly attacking you- "Oh, Generic Captain Name, we too hate everybody!  Please lead our Armada of Evil!".  Maybe, like M&B, you can only get certain Captains if you're, well, bad.


It'd make being a Space Pirate or Faction privateer more interesting, among other things; you'd want to do -Rep behaviors to make money... but you'd want to do +Rep behaviors to get the bennies.

[Sy]

i don't think attacking civilian ships should, by itself, be something that can negatively affect any kind of reputation/karma system. because most of the "civilian" ships in starsector fleets are actually more "ships that carry supplies, fuel and trade goods, and aren't designed for front-line combat" and are often a crucial part of large military fleets. it makes perfect sense that military fleets would chase down fleeing cargo transports after a victory, to claim their goods and/or deny the enemy faction important supplies.

reputation penalties could make sense for specific ships or fleets; for example, blowing up a Starliner transport that likely carries a large number of actual civilian passengers (and doesn't award much loot, as its not designed to carry much else) or attacking an independent mercantile convoy (which does award a lot of loot, but would really be attacking mainly civilian-crewed ships with no affiliation to the major faction's military forces).
but just chasing down any fleeing freighters after a victory against a hostile military fleet shouldn't be something that is widely seen as morally reprehensible in the sector.

[xenoargh]

I agree that the distinction isn't entirely clear there, but I'd kind of like to see "military fleet with logistical support" and "civilian fleet flying X Faction's flag" as two distinct things, like they are IRL.

[Sy]

yeah, agreed. i imagine most of the faction specific mercantile fleets are also just civilians who accept a commission in return for protection and reduced tariffs or some such, rather than supply convoys under direct military leadership.

[nomadic_leader]

-Well if the main issue is lack of risky battles, there'd be a lot more risky battles if players and NPCs were forced to deploy their entire fleets in every battle and battle max size were eliminated.

Don't quite get that. As long as you have the choice to attack fleets that are bigger/stronger than you, there's need for a campaign motivation to do so. The in-combat motivation is that its fun, but outside its just counterproductive. How would deploying always everything change that for the better?

Eh, well actually the battle rep is pretty interesting by itself so there's no need to justify it with the risk thing, so I'll try not to get too off topic but: by deploying all, your civilian ships could still be placed in some risk even when fighting against a smaller force. And if that made you decide not to have civilian ships, then that disadvantage would also come with its own set of risks.

Just imagine an old warrior who only parts from his sword ship when he sees his younger self in the player character. Basically any faction/individual with bellicistic tendencies might be impressed by your battle accomplishments, and thus more likely to sell you stuff.

In my experience this isn't very realistic. Usually people are threatened by younger versions of themselves and rather than accept their own mortality by endorsing a replacement, they kind of want to squash that new person. So I only think it makes sense if you are commissioned/associated with that faction giving the discount as an agent for them. But overall its a good idea. I just meant I didn't understand random strangers who had nothing to do with you giving you a discount.

[Pax_Empyrean]

To reward fighting against long odds without adding much complexity, it could just award bonus experience to the player, officers, and crew when you win a more challenging battle.