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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 252177 times)

JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #870 on: December 20, 2021, 10:41:23 PM »

I get that. I was just expressing my feeling too. The other guy who was replying to my post doesn't represent the way I feel so I'd rather have debate about it without being combined to him, please.

My apologies; I should've split things out more properly.

Look, splitting me off from the argument is perfectly fine and dandy.  But perhaps you are missing my point.  Making rules is the prerogative of any system's designer.  They can even make exceptions to said rule (and generally do).  But when one starts to make exceptions to the exceptions... then the results begin to compound.  So now you need to make exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions... you get the idea (copy pasting at its worst!).  At some point the rules require reformation, not the exceptions.  Best practices and all.  This isn't/wasn't intended as a dig at any single person, merely an observation of code design.

Technically, this hasn't risen to that level (yet?).  Currently, this can at best be described as a second exception, not necessarily an exception to the first exception.  But by adding further exceptions, the designer has already begun to slip down that slope of compounding exceptions.  How does one determine when to cut and run vs. reform the rules?  Couldn't say, that is system dependent (ie, it's relative).
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #871 on: December 20, 2021, 10:46:28 PM »

Hmm - I mean, fair enough! But it did feel that way to me. Heavy Blaster DPS is just paper DPS most of the time, right - most ships can't support it, which isn't the case for the PL. And then the PL is considerably better DPS-wise in short engagements than the raw numbers seem because it does front-loaded burst damage - e.g. the DPS is almost double if you hang around just long enough for two bursts. And since the flux cost is so much lower, you don't need quite as much in the way of vents/caps, which offsets the cost of HSA, etc. I'm not saying I'm 100% right on this, but just that, yeah, it felt too strong to me. It's much easier to make a flux-light loadout on a hit-and-run high-tech ship with basically all the benefits of having a Heavy Blaster.

Sound like a better nerf for HSA would be to increase the flux consumption of beam weapons, maybe by 100%?
Now you can deal hard flux damage to shields at terribly efficiency!... Kinda defeats the purpose.

I feel like HSA + advanced optics should be allowed again at the very least.

Edit:
Also, just to Alex's points: HB does full DPS upfront until you get high on flux, so it ends up being 'bursty' in a similar way to PL and thus still does much more upfront DPS IMO. I generally value HB most for its performance chewing through hull, and use it mostly on ships like fury/aurora/doom that can support it pretty well anyway, so I kinda expect the full DPS most of the time.

Also you are spending quite a bit more OP on those HSA phase lances than a heavy blaster. You're probably already sacrificing other stuff (flux stats or defensive hullmods) on the ship to even fit the HSA beams compared to another build.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 11:19:50 PM by intrinsic_parity »
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Modo44

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #872 on: December 20, 2021, 10:59:46 PM »

So now you need to make exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions...
In addition to so many special cases being extremely difficult to follow (F the new player, right?), this only covers the issues you know about (have documented). Even looking at the complexity of "only" vanilla Starsector, you can be 100% sure you have not -- and will never -- recognise all such special cases.

Broken stuff will always exist, and these fixes often feel like punishment directed at experienced players for finding it. The noobs would never know anyway. Instead of getting bogged down in the details, I would strongly suggest focusing on making the initial experience balanced and easy to follow.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #873 on: December 20, 2021, 11:16:48 PM »

What's the idea behind HSA, anyway? To make beams into hardflux weapons? Just use weapons that are already hard flux.

I'm also surprised that you didn't simply make shield shunt and MSG incompatible, Alex, as it doesn't stop you from non s-modded combo.
Do people even use MSG as intended, anyway? I have never.

Vanshilar

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #874 on: December 20, 2021, 11:43:03 PM »

Xyphos now 18 OP? I’ve never thought they were in need a nerf. You’re trading actual damage for utility and if you put it on a capital, they’re typically outranged. I don’t understand this at all.

Nah Xyphos nerf was spot-on. You get 360 degree PD as well as 2 ion beams. The fighters hover by your ship so they rarely die, which means they are active even if you're venting, or overloaded, or at high flux, etc. Also, since they don't die, it also helps keep the fighter replacement rate for other fighters.

Take the Odyssey for example. Realistically it's going to be fighting within the 1200 range of the Xyphos, since it doesn't have ballistics. It only has 2 bays, and energy and missile slots, so you don't really have the OP to put a lot of fighter buffs on it -- it's not a dedicated carrier nor even a battle carrier, the fighter slots are too few to use a build that revolves around them. So the Xyphos works perfect in that role. You can go with dual Xyphos, though for me, I stick a Longbow on the other slot so that the Odyssey has some additional anti-shield; because the Xyphos stays alive, the replacement rate for the Longbows won't get below around 65-70%.

The Xyphos also works well in a Converted Hangar setting for ships like the Fury or destroyers. Odysseys backed by Xyphos/Sabot Furies is a very strong fleet combination against [REDACTED] fleets, because the Xyphos will stop their offense cold once the Sabots go off.

It's much easier to make a flux-light loadout on a hit-and-run high-tech ship with basically all the benefits of having a Heavy Blaster.

I'm not sure how that works out though. Phase Lance is sort of 40% of a Heavy Blaster, so certainly there are some (lighter) ships where Heavy Blaster would be too much flux but you can mount Phase Lance instead due to lower flux consumption. In those cases though, then it also means you're amortizing the cost of HSA across fewer weapons, so HSA is essentially "more expensive"; basically, the overall weapon cost is more expensive, i.e. like a hard-flux Phase Lance for 16 OP or whatever (depends on the ship size and how many weapons the cost is being spread across). Same reason why Expanded Missile Racks might not be worthwhile if the ship only has a couple of missile slots.

Now if the ship has enough flux and weapon slots to mount 2 Phase Lances, then the comparison is actually between 2 Phase Lances or 1 Heavy Blaster (the other slot can be left blank). In the case of 2 Phase Lances, you're doing 477 DPS (with HSA) for 522 flux, compared with Heavy Blaster's 500 DPS for 720 flux. So you spend 8 more OP plus the cost of HSA (amortized over your beam weapons) to gain that flux efficiency, at a cost of losing 23 DPS. It's basically a high-OP cost option for more flux efficiency (like Heavy Needler vs Heavy Autocannon). That means the ship is giving up other stuff that it could've used with all the OP.

Phase Lance does 1250 damage per 1.75-second burst, then nothing until the next burst 4 seconds later (the cooldown period). So it takes 7.5 seconds to do 2500 damage. During that 7.5 seconds, the Heavy Blaster will have fired 7 times, for 3500 damage. In fact the Heavy Blaster will have done enough damage to equal those 2 Phase Lance bursts before the second burst even starts. So its overall damage is higher than the Heavy Blaster only during the first few seconds of the first burst, but after that, Heavy Blaster will always be higher. Even with HSA adding 10% damage, the results still wouldn't change much.

So basically I don't see how HSA meant Phase Lance would obsolete Heavy Blaster. (If anything, it's Cryoblaster that does this, but of course Cryoblaster is a limited, endgame weapon.)

The weapon that might be too powerful with HSA I think is actually the Rift Lance. It's 1 OP cheaper than Phase Lance but requires 44 less flux to use. It's also a small energy weapon, so it can be put in more places than a Phase Lance (since small energy mounts are much more plentiful than medium energy mounts.) So I can see that say a Medusa with 2 ballistics in the small universals plus 4 Rift Lances with HSA may be pretty formidable. That's very OP-intensive, however, and I'm not sure it would actually work out better than 2 IR Pulse Lasers and a Heavy Blaster. And since it's a limited, endgame weapon, like the Cryoblaster, I'm not sure it's an entirely fair comparison to make. Plus, it essentially competes with the IR Pulse Laser and/or the Pulse Laser for anti-shield at that point.

Otherwise, though, I'm still having trouble figuring out where HSA results in a better loadout than just using the closest projectile weapons in those energy slots.

At any rate, perhaps letting players using AO in conjunction with HSA again would make it an acceptable balance, because AO means an additional OP cost for ships that want beams to do hard flux at longer ranges.

Equip your Doom with a Phase Anchor, HSA, 2x Phase Lances and 4x Rift Lances. If the enemy is clustered, you will destroy them far more quickly. It's clearly dependent on the situation, but the advantage here is that you don't need to wait for the SRMs to reload. Not nearly as safe, though.

Didn't work. It simply lacks the punch. A single AMSRM+cryoblaster burst can one-shot a Fulgent (assuming mines successfully re-oriented their shields) -- that's 6000 energy damage at 1000 hit strength, plus an additional 2800 frag damage at 1400 hit strength (which really becomes 350 to armor/hull). Usually a second dual Cryoblaster burst gets fired before the Doom can phase again. 2 Phase Lances and 4 Rift Lances comes out to a 5500 energy damage burst at 550 hit strength (since it has HSA), then a weaker 2750 energy damage burst (while the Phase Lances are on cooldown). You'd need to do 2 bursts (a strong and a weak), and even if you flicker into phase in between, it's less efficient (a smaller fraction of your cycle time is spent in phase, since you're on unphase cooldown more often), and sticking around for the 2nd burst makes it more dangerous. Even 6 rift lances wasn't as good.

Basically, the Rift Lance cooldown is too short to make good use of phasing in and out to accelerate the cooldown.

Generally I've found that I don't really have trouble with AMSRM running out of ammo on my Doom -- I tend to hit high-value targets, then retreat to vent, and during that time, my AMSRM will recharge just fine. The Cryoblasters can take care of stragglers as well without wasting AMSRM charges. Nowadays, in 0.95.1a, I've taken off Expanded Missile Racks (and Missile Specialization) entirely and haven't had trouble running out of charges even though I only start off with 3.

What's the idea behind HSA, anyway? To make beams into hardflux weapons? Just use weapons that are already hard flux.

To give ships with energy weapons another way to use beams. But since it's new, it takes several iterations to figure out how to make it work out, just like all other new stuff.

Edit: Forgot HSA also gives 10% more damage, though it doesn't materially change anything in the post.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2021, 12:46:27 AM by Vanshilar »
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JJ842

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #875 on: December 20, 2021, 11:44:39 PM »

Just wanted to ask about the rationale behind the extreme resource demands (10 volatiles / transplutonics) of the Fusion lamp and Hypershunt tap items. By the time they can be met the bonuses given by the items barely matter, so why not let us actually use them in the early/midgame phase when they'd be useful? Maybe lower the costs significantly but make it so that it has to be met by in-faction imports (something something safe use requires non-standard exotic componds mixed in the supply due to copyright issues or whatever)? For the Hypershunt tap the player has to beat one of the most difficult combat encounters AND fork over a fortune's worth of materials to fix the Hypershunt, isn't that enough?

Also, apparently the description of the Fusion lamp is a bit misleading (at least according to the wiki) and it can be used with less than 10 volatiles with reduced effect (and no risk of meltdown hinted at in the item description), maybe update that as well?

« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 11:47:14 PM by JJ842 »
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #876 on: December 21, 2021, 12:04:08 AM »

To give ships with energy weapons another way to use beams.
A way to use beams in a manner identical to weapons you already have. It seems redundant to me.

PureTilt

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #877 on: December 21, 2021, 12:35:33 AM »

About shield shunt makeshift shield situation, imo banning shield shunt from being S-modded is preferable way, shield shunt + makeshift shield is interesting combo (even if not very useful one) and removing it coz S-mod exploit is bad idea, shield shunt is extremely cheap Hmod i don't see point in ever S-modding it
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SethMK

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #878 on: December 21, 2021, 12:53:06 AM »

To give ships with energy weapons another way to use beams.
A way to use beams in a manner identical to weapons you already have. It seems redundant to me.

I agree, why not have them do something different. Here are the wo possible options as examples.

One option would be for beams to reduce an targets flux dissipation amount by a percentage of damage dealt.  That would be different from hard flux as it would even affect targets without a shield just don't have that % be to high where it shuts a ship down in the blink of an eye.

A more interesting option would be for the beams to slow down a target hit with it... Makes kiting harder but too high of a % would make them into tractor beams that prevent a ship from moving but I'd not have it affect maneuvering so rotation isn't slowed down... Otherwise you can get into a blind spot with no shielding and even a frigate could eventually grind down a capital solo with enough time..
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #879 on: December 21, 2021, 12:57:18 AM »

Whoa that's a ton of changes for a hotfix. Some of them I really appreciate but it seems I'm the only one who doesn't get the Manticore nerf. The ship is all about that large ballistic turret and it was already hard to fit some weapons unless you want it overfluxed badly. Imo the issue is too much missile firepower, I was initially even surprised to hear that such a ship has 2 medium missiles. Now it has the same flux dissipation as Hammerhead while having to deal with insane flux costs for large weapons (from low tech's point of view ofc). I don't know maybe I'm overreacting but it appears even more pigeonholed into a MkIX + HE missiles ship now. Rip my Mjolnir Manticore in campaign lmao.
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Maethendias

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #880 on: December 21, 2021, 12:58:03 AM »

About shield shunt makeshift shield situation, imo banning shield shunt from being S-modded is preferable way, shield shunt + makeshift shield is interesting combo (even if not very useful one) and removing it coz S-mod exploit is bad idea, shield shunt is extremely cheap Hmod i don't see point in ever S-modding it

"banning x mod from being s modded" is a very ... unelegant way of doing things

and imo completly removes the point of s mods

what is the point if you remove so from s mods (ironically a mod that literally should be permanent anyways if you build it in, considering its nature), and then shield shunt? whats next? all logistic mods? all dock mods? all weapon mods?

(also, removing it from being s moddable AND reducing the armor bonus kind of throws the hullmod straight back into pointlessness, no? dont forget you are still PAYING op to remove your shields...)

yeah no

« Last Edit: December 21, 2021, 01:07:15 AM by Maethendias »
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float

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #881 on: December 21, 2021, 01:13:16 AM »

So HSA now has flat +100 range compared to 0.95, technically still a buff, but definitely no longer worth using.

For the large energies we have tach lance and HIL, which get reduced to 600 base range. This is the same range as a heavy blaster, which has theoretically the same DPS as HIL and more DPS than the lance. It is worse against armor than either and less flux efficient, but I’d still use a heavy blaster + extra vents over either considering the massive OP difference. And if I had enough OP for tach lances / HIL + HSA and max vents, I’d just use plasma cannons instead, which have more range and substantially more DPS. I guess plasma cannon is flux hungry enough that the AI might have an easier time with HSA tach lances, but there’s a reason capital ships don’t really use heavy blasters — 600 base range is just not enough to not get kited by smaller, faster ships.

For medium energies we have graviton beam and phase lance. 600 range graviton is basically irrelevant, and phase lance, at 400 base range (560 on a cruiser with ITU), is at the point where safety overrides doesn’t actually decrease the range much at all. And if I’m using safety overrides, there’s no reason not to use heavy blasters instead for the massive boost in sustained DPS.

For small energies we have tactical laser and rift lance. Tac laser is irrelevant, and 400 range rift lance might be useful on some SO builds, but that’s more due to rift lance’s power than HSA’s usefulness.

Right now HSA is a hull mod with a strong benefit and a drawback to balance it out, and the game is to find the right level of drawback. What if it instead got a less strong buff, but with no drawback (or at least a much less game-changing one)? Something like, deals x% hard flux damage based on distance to target, from 0% at max range to 100% at point blank, and reduces range by 10%.
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vladokapuh

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #882 on: December 21, 2021, 02:04:00 AM »

It's not quite clear enough to me how polarized armor and shield shunt work now, so ill ask here.
Is it that it gets upto 50% increase at 50% hardflux, or is it 50% increase at 100% hardflux?
As conseqence to this, is shunt with polarized armor still getting 50% increase, or is it only getting 25%?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2021, 02:06:49 AM by vladokapuh »
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Rojnaz

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #883 on: December 21, 2021, 02:47:13 AM »

I only use low-tech ships, and i think shield shunt it's too good on high base armor ships and not useful in the rest, even nerfed, it's still too good on some ships and useless in others.

What if instead of bonus % armor, it adds fixed "armor for the damage reduction calculation only"?
If i'm not wrong, this type of armor works better for "hull-tanking" wish could open possibilities for new configurations other than armor stacking.
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DaShiv

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #884 on: December 21, 2021, 02:49:09 AM »

What's the idea behind HSA, anyway? To make beams into hardflux weapons? Just use weapons that are already hard flux.

I can't speak for Alex's vision for HSA, but to my eyes HSA could be a way to turn 1000 range beams from long-range pressure weapons into proper hard flux support weapons for large energies, similar to Ballistic Rangefinder for small ballistics. The problem is that hard flux also makes short burst beams (Phase/Rift Lance) too much of generalist weapons.

The answer I think is to make HSA's penalty disproportionately impact short burst beams: flat -300 to base range, does not affect PD (similar to Ballistic Rangefinder). This way:
  • Short burst beams: 300 base range w/ HSA, same as Light Machine Guns and used in similar way (for fast knife-fighting ships, such as SO frigates). Phase ships can't abuse this because they would be caught in ship explosion range.
  • Long range beams: 700 base range w/ HSA, same as large energy weapons. Now you can for example pair HSA gravitons to support large energies, or provide new longer range, lower DPS, and OP-expensive alternatives for smaller ships. (Compare: Tac Laser vs IR Pulse Laser.) None of the small/medium 1000-range beams (Tac Laser, Grav Beam, Ion Beam) would be overtuned as 700 hard flux weapons on smaller ships due to their low DPS and poor hit strength against armor - 700-range small ballistics have way better stats than 700 range HSA small/medium beams, and Ballistic Rangefinder (and Ballistic Mastery) also extends their range beyond HSA beams. Large 1000-range beams already directly compete with other large energies at the same 700 range.
There'd need to be a minimum range that HSA could reduce to (say, 250 to match Vulcan) to not break weird mod beams, but other than that, this would let HSA turn existing beam weapons into hard flux weapons that fill some open niches.
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