Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17

Author Topic: Skill Overhaul  (Read 97499 times)

Sy

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1225
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #225 on: December 21, 2016, 03:25:06 PM »

Being careful to design skills so that their bonuses - especially the level 3 ones - remain useful throughout and aren't just a "phase of the game" thing.
i'm fine with not having a respec option in general, but one of the skills shown in the blogpost seems problematic to me: Strike Commander (in the first screenshot) does not give any bonus whatsoever if my flagship doesn't have flight decks. the hullmod that adds a single inferior flight deck allows to get some benefit from the skill, but iirc that flight deck is especially inferior to normal ones when it comes to using bombers (which is what the skills seems to focus on). not to mention that simply not every loadout will want to use that hullmod.

so investing into a skill that will become completely useless if i ever switch to a flagship that doesn't use fighters doesn't seem fun, even if the skill is quite good for when i do pilot ships with fighters. other skills that increase the combat power of the flagship will have at least a small benefit even for dedicated carriers (i assume). a missile skill might not do anything for a ship that doesn't use any missiles, but there are a looot more ships without a flight deck than ones that don't have a single missile mount. ^^

i do like the idea of being able to specialize into piloting carriers though, so i don't really know a good way to solve this. :/
maybe it could be a hybrid skill that gives fighter bonuses to ships with in-built flight decks, and other bonuses to ships without them? not at all ideal, but at least it would prevent feeling like 3 skillpoints are completely wasted whenever i switch to a fighter-less flagship. or fighter skills could include both decent bonuses for flagship carriers and small bonuses for all other carriers in the fleet, rather than being split into flagship-exclusive and fleet-wide skills.. although that would somewhat go against being able to specialize into carrier flagships in particular, even if those get stronger bonuses than the rest of the fleet.


Another suggestion:  what are your thoughts on giving Sabot SRMs the Salamander treatment?
i quite like this idea!

current Sabots are problematic both in the sense that their limited ammo will often be 'wasted' if their pressure doesn't allow you to follow up with real damage (which also means that when fighting against enemies with Sabots, it's often a good idea to wait until they've wasted them all before committing to a real attack yourself), and in the sense that large salvos of them can obliterate small targets with little chance for counterplay.

giving them unlimited ammo but a long firing delay could solve these issues, even if they need some additional adjustments like reduced per-shot damage. if their anti-armor capabilities are a concern in combination with unlimited ammo, they could be changed to firing something in between the current single projectile and the shotgun-like spread they had at one time: a large number of small projectiles that have very little spread, thereby reducing effectiveness against armor without significantly changing the way they hit (or miss) a target.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #226 on: December 21, 2016, 03:28:10 PM »

Re: Carrier skills for ships without decks.
Most ships can get a deck via hullmod, but with drawbacks.  Maybe those drawbacks can be lessened or removed with carrier skills?
Logged

Sy

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1225
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #227 on: December 21, 2016, 03:33:19 PM »

Maybe those drawbacks can be lessened or removed with carrier skills?
huh. yeah, i think that could work. still wouldn't make a difference for loadouts that just don't wanna spend the OP on fighters, but making the hullmod closer to a normal flight deck, or even requiring the skill to unlock such a hullmod in the first place, could help quite a bit. i think it's better than my two suggestions, at least! ^^
Logged

ChaseBears

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 224
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #228 on: December 21, 2016, 06:43:04 PM »

I strongly disagree that the Sabot should be reloading.  Given the assumption that weapons are balanced for their OP, a reloading missile needs to either perform worse or cost more OP.  Non-reloading missiles therefore let you hit above your weight class while they last.    Sabots in particular are ideal for getting quick kills to even the odds, or to take on more powerful vessels.   You can already make burst-damage builds, with several vessels having systems explicitly built for it; there's no need to slot missiles into doing that for every vessel.

A comparison with fighters is questionable, as fighters explicitly have a mechanic to limit their replenishment...  I also doubt this is the last tweak we will see to fighters.
Logged
If I were creating the world I wouldn’t mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o’clock, Day One!

Sy

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1225
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #229 on: December 21, 2016, 07:22:31 PM »

You can already make burst-damage builds, with several vessels having systems explicitly built for it; there's no need to slot missiles into doing that for every vessel.
that's part of why i think it would be a good idea, though: Sabots already allow kinda ridiculous bursts that can kill small(ish) targets outright. and there's usually not much said target can do to avoid or counter this burst, unless it is mobile enough to just evade it entirely. the number of these bursts Sabots can do is limited by ammo, yes. but even if it can't be done an unlimited number of times, the potential power of such a burst is still an issue. and a ship with 2 medium Sabot Pods and Expanded Missile Racks can do 5 bursts of 8 Sabots each. Gryphon can do 10 burst of 12 Sabots each, and still have all its small slots free for other missiles. that's of course the most extreme example, but i think it still shows that there's an issue despite the ammo limitation.

just giving current Sabot Rack and Pod unlimited ammo would obviously be completely broken (or more broken than it already is, depending on who you ask ^^). but introducing a significant firing delay alongside the removal of ammo dependency, similar to how it was done for the current Salamander, would significantly reduce the killing potential of individual bursts, while also making sure that 'wasting' Sabots won't leave you without any for the rest of the battle -- only for something like 20 seconds (or whatever number would be balanced).
Logged

Midnight Kitsune

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
  • Your Friendly Forum Friend
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #230 on: December 21, 2016, 08:05:17 PM »

I would say that the Sabot also needs to have its seconds stage set to three lesser damage projectiles instead of the one single one as that would cut the damage to armor
Logged
Help out MesoTroniK, a modder in need

2021 is 2020 won
2022 is 2020 too

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3529
  • MagicLab discord: https://discord.gg/EVQZaD3naU
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #231 on: December 22, 2016, 03:10:05 AM »

We are currently having a fleet building tounament on Discord, and one of the more dangerous fleet of the first round used a lot of Sabots pods to kill ships outright. So no, no buffs to the sabots please.
Logged
 

Histidine

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4688
    • View Profile
    • GitHub profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #232 on: December 22, 2016, 03:46:04 AM »

If Sabot got Salamanderized it could have it stats configured to behave like a ballistic weapon that happens to go into missile mounts. This would remove the need for certain annoying traits it has at present, like "cleaves right through frigate armor" and "moves so fast it's practically teleporting" (aside from preventing counterplay, it also looks rather... can't-take-seriously).

2) Weapon groups, can we get more of them :)? Some capital ships have a wide selection of weapons and for me at least 5 slots its usually not enough. What I like to do is keep slot 5 empty so I can switch to it from an auto firing slot and keep the slots weapon range overlay.
That way I can focus on maneuvers with the weapon ranges displayed and let the ai handle the firing, however this brings me down to 4 weapon slots and as on most ships 1 is always reserved for manual fire missiles and 1 for hardpoint weapons. The remaining 2 slots are not always enough to separate point defenses and other main weapons. Tho its probably not the best solution its the only workaround I know for having the weapon range displayed of a specific auto fire slot.
Honestly, probably not, though I get what you're saying. I might get around to adding one more but it's kind of a pain, so it being non-essential, priority is always going to be very low.
Huh, it's hard to add a new weapon group? If I may ask to have my curiosity indulged, is this a UI thing, a code thing or both?

Hullmods that modify OP get weird because there's all sorts of edge cases about what to do when you remove them.
The Ship & Weapon Pack hullmod that adds OP readds itself if it was present before and the player takes it off after making use of its added OP (thereby putting themselves over the limit). A vanilla implementation would presumably just not allow removing the hullmod if it would drop max OP below current OP (possibly with warning message), the inverse of not being able to add a weapon, hullmod or vent/cap if it would go over the limit.

The failure case that occurred to me (other than newbies briefly wondering why they can't take off the hullmod) is when a variant in a mission has over-limit OP and the player could accidentally install a +OP hullmod that ends up giving them drawbacks for no benefit. But this can only normally happen in missions (where it can be fixed by the Reset button) and the same thing can already occur if they remove stuff and can't put it back on.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #233 on: December 22, 2016, 05:34:37 AM »

Unlimited Sabots would need to be like the 1 OP single-shot, but worth 5 OP minimum like Salamanders (maybe a bit longer reload).  Maybe better comparison would be the fighters' Swarmers vs. ship Swarmers.  I'd take the fighters' unlimited two-shot swarmers over the limited four-shot swarmers anytime, especially now that fighters will become unlimited missiles themselves.
Logged

Techhead

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 184
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #234 on: December 22, 2016, 10:28:36 AM »

If Sabot got Salamanderized it could have it stats configured to behave like a ballistic weapon that happens to go into missile mounts. This would remove the need for certain annoying traits it has at present, like "cleaves right through frigate armor" and "moves so fast it's practically teleporting" (aside from preventing counterplay, it also looks rather... can't-take-seriously).

I was imagine the current Sabot as being something like an explosively formed penetrator. (Like in the BGM-71F TOW. Video.)

Hullmods that modify OP get weird because there's all sorts of edge cases about what to do when you remove them.
The Ship & Weapon Pack hullmod that adds OP readds itself if it was present before and the player takes it off after making use of its added OP (thereby putting themselves over the limit). A vanilla implementation would presumably just not allow removing the hullmod if it would drop max OP below current OP (possibly with warning message), the inverse of not being able to add a weapon, hullmod or vent/cap if it would go over the limit.

The failure case that occurred to me (other than newbies briefly wondering why they can't take off the hullmod) is when a variant in a mission has over-limit OP and the player could accidentally install a +OP hullmod that ends up giving them drawbacks for no benefit. But this can only normally happen in missions (where it can be fixed by the Reset button) and the same thing can already occur if they remove stuff and can't put it back on.

An "over-OP" effect might be needed anyway, if respeccing gets added and someone has the +OP skill.
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 24131
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #235 on: December 22, 2016, 10:37:15 AM »

Re: Sabots - I think where they're at now is pretty good. I don't want to move towards more missiles with unlimited ammo, as limited ammo is kind of their thing, mostly. So, "hard-to-counter-with-PD burst damage with a decent chance of overload" seems like a distinct-enough niche. Clearly not something you can rely on as your only source of kinetic damage, yeah, and whatever early variants make that assumption will just be changed as I spot them.


i'm fine with not having a respec option in general, but one of the skills shown in the blogpost seems problematic to me: Strike Commander (in the first screenshot) does not give any bonus whatsoever if my flagship doesn't have flight decks. the hullmod that adds a single inferior flight deck allows to get some benefit from the skill, but iirc that flight deck is especially inferior to normal ones when it comes to using bombers (which is what the skills seems to focus on). not to mention that simply not every loadout will want to use that hullmod.

so investing into a skill that will become completely useless if i ever switch to a flagship that doesn't use fighters doesn't seem fun, even if the skill is quite good for when i do pilot ships with fighters. other skills that increase the combat power of the flagship will have at least a small benefit even for dedicated carriers (i assume). a missile skill might not do anything for a ship that doesn't use any missiles, but there are a looot more ships without a flight deck than ones that don't have a single missile mount. ^^

i do like the idea of being able to specialize into piloting carriers though, so i don't really know a good way to solve this. :/

On the flip side, if you were to invest in other flagship-boosting skills, they'd feel a bit like a waste in a carrier. It's not that they'd be entirely useless, but say improving the flux stats of a carrier isn't exactly the same as doing it for a direct-combat ship.

I do get exactly what you're saying, though. In my mind, "piloting a carrier" is going to be a pretty specialized thing that you'll want to stick with for an entire playthrough. It'll also save you some points from not speccing into combat - it's a point-cheap way to get good combat capability. Probably a bit more efficient per-point than combat skills, but the ceiling is lower since it's just 3 ship fighter-skills plus 1 fleet-wide.

These are also good skills for officers to have, if you want them to command a carrier.

... might also have to add a few more carriers along the way, to make this more appealing.

maybe it could be a hybrid skill that gives fighter bonuses to ships with in-built flight decks, and other bonuses to ships without them? not at all ideal, but at least it would prevent feeling like 3 skillpoints are completely wasted whenever i switch to a fighter-less flagship. or fighter skills could include both decent bonuses for flagship carriers and small bonuses for all other carriers in the fleet, rather than being split into flagship-exclusive and fleet-wide skills.. although that would somewhat go against being able to specialize into carrier flagships in particular, even if those get stronger bonuses than the rest of the fleet.

Plus, you'd still feel like you had to use a carrier yourself to get the most out of it, since that's where the bigger bonuses are.


Maybe those drawbacks can be lessened or removed with carrier skills?
huh. yeah, i think that could work. still wouldn't make a difference for loadouts that just don't wanna spend the OP on fighters, but making the hullmod closer to a normal flight deck, or even requiring the skill to unlock such a hullmod in the first place, could help quite a bit. i think it's better than my two suggestions, at least! ^^

That'd make sense, but that hullmod doesn't have enough drawbacks for 3 separate fighter skills to remove :) Although, I doubt that having one fighter bay on a battleship would be consolation enough for 9 point spent.



Huh, it's hard to add a new weapon group? If I may ask to have my curiosity indulged, is this a UI thing, a code thing or both?

I wouldn't say it's "hard", but there's a lot of places I'd need to check, both UI and implementation-wise.

The Ship & Weapon Pack hullmod that adds OP readds itself if it was present before and the player takes it off after making use of its added OP (thereby putting themselves over the limit). A vanilla implementation would presumably just not allow removing the hullmod if it would drop max OP below current OP (possibly with warning message), the inverse of not being able to add a weapon, hullmod or vent/cap if it would go over the limit.

The failure case that occurred to me (other than newbies briefly wondering why they can't take off the hullmod) is when a variant in a mission has over-limit OP and the player could accidentally install a +OP hullmod that ends up giving them drawbacks for no benefit. But this can only normally happen in missions (where it can be fixed by the Reset button) and the same thing can already occur if they remove stuff and can't put it back on.

I mean, that makes sense, but that's not necessarily everything. It probably covers most of it, especially right now. But suppose there was some way for a ship to lose a hullmod, for example... or any code modifying a variant's hullmods would need to check this, really. Not to discount the idea entirely, but I don't want to go there without a compelling reason.
Logged

Sy

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1225
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #236 on: December 22, 2016, 11:25:33 AM »

... might also have to add a few more carriers along the way, to make this more appealing.
i'd love to see more carrier options in general! :]

in particular, i think it would be a good idea to have another option besides Condor in the destroyer category, something better suited for flagship duty and maybe more high-techy, especially since Gemini is becoming an actual freighter hybrid. and Odyssey is currently the only real combat-carrier hybrid (Mora and Heron might be able to fight at the front line, but they still rely almost entirely on their fighters to do damage), which is a role that will become a lot more interesting to play with the revamp, i think.

Quote
Although, I doubt that having one fighter bay on a battleship would be consolation enough for 9 point spent.
right, it wouldn't actually make a big difference. but just in general, the difference between "only very minor benefit for what i'm using now, compared to other skills that would be much more effective" still just feels a lot better (to me) than "literally 0 benefit for what i'm using now, might as well not have spent those 3 points at all".
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 24131
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #237 on: December 22, 2016, 11:55:59 AM »

i'd love to see more carrier options in general! :]

in particular, i think it would be a good idea to have another option besides Condor in the destroyer category, something better suited for flagship duty and maybe more high-techy, especially since Gemini is becoming an actual freighter hybrid. and Odyssey is currently the only real combat-carrier hybrid (Mora and Heron might be able to fight at the front line, but they still rely almost entirely on their fighters to do damage), which is a role that will become a lot more interesting to play with the revamp, i think.

(Speaking of the Mora, that thing might be a good reason for mixing combat and fighter skills. Put two Tyhpoons on it, combine with the right types of fighters, and can really do some damage.)

But yeah, definitely a few gaps in carriers that it makes more sense to fill in given that they're now a "flagship playstyle".

right, it wouldn't actually make a big difference. but just in general, the difference between "only very minor benefit for what i'm using now, compared to other skills that would be much more effective" still just feels a lot better (to me) than "literally 0 benefit for what i'm using now, might as well not have spent those 3 points at all".

Yeah, I get that 100%.
Logged

Gothars

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4403
  • Eschewing obfuscatory verbosity.
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #238 on: December 22, 2016, 12:01:52 PM »

In my mind, "piloting a carrier" is going to be a pretty specialized thing that you'll want to stick with for an entire playthrough.

Waaa, I wanna try that now!

Ahem.

 
*Goes back to plundering Steam*
Logged
The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

Sy

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1225
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #239 on: December 22, 2016, 12:11:25 PM »

Logged
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17