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[Histidine]

Something I did for fun, based on discussions with certain other modders.
(Note: Like the whole D&D alignment system in general, don't take too seriously.)

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full-size version

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My comments on faction placement

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Factions are a bit harder to place on the usual D&D alignment scheme compared to individuals (not that it was already very accurate for those), since two distinct factors are involved: the faction's internal policies, and what role it plays in the greater Sector. This complicates the lawful-chaotic axis in particular: for instance, Templars are internally very Lawful (strict hierarchical religious organization), but in the broader sector they act as a force for chaos (destroying everything, cannot be negotiated with) and so DR proposed placing them on the Chaotic side.

Good-evil still remains relatively simple: treat people within and without well, or not.

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If you want your own faction added somewhere, or it's there and you think it should be somewhere else, shout!

[Orikson]

Nicely done! I wonder what qualify as Chaotic Good? Can you tell me?

Also, what factions are the Persean League, Idoneus Garrison, Association, and Idoneus Exiles?

I've seen the Persean flag in the core files before, is that correct?

And the Idoneus are ICE is it? Or are they two seperate things?

Association is what I'm assuming to be the Ahriman Association, which goes together in a single mod with Exigency by MesoTronik.

[THEASD]

Where is the independent?

[Weltall]

I love it~ I am glad you are using the old alignment system.. except if the latest version that I never touched changed it back to how it should be.

I guess independent should be chaotic neutral?

As for chaotic good, just think of a factions like independent that are chaotic, but fighting with ideas to bring good to the galaxy (kinda in wrong ways).

[Histidine]

I wonder what qualify as Chaotic Good? Can you tell me?

There's a nice explanation here. In Starsector terms, I'd expect a "revolutionary movement" faction to fit the bill perfectly; it's a bit surprising no-one has done that yet.

I've seen the Persean flag in the core files before, is that correct?

And the Idoneus are ICE is it? Or are they two seperate things?

Association is what I'm assuming to be the Ahriman Association, which goes together in a single mod with Exigency by MesoTronik.

Yeah, correct on all counts.
The Persean League is a planned but currently unused vanilla faction (it gets mentioned in one mission).
The two Idoneus factions are from ICE.

Where is the independent?

Independents aren't a unified faction with common traits, even more so than pirates; compare the descriptions of New Maxios, Agreus and Nortia for instance. Note also the faction description:
Not a unified faction as such, the Independents are a loose category of polities and free agents unified more by a lack of association with a major faction than any shared qualities. Independent worlds and the spacers who call them home often share reputation data, trade generously among themselves, and will readily cooperate to perform short-term security and military actions to better protect what freedom they have maintained by working together. Equally likely, trust can break down, and Independents will suspiciously deny each other favors, compete viciously, and turn a blind eye to the misfortune of neighbours.

But if they really wanted to go into a particular square, true neutral would probably fit.

[Weltall]

Independent are true neutral? Aren't their thoughts a bit too out of alignment to be called that? Isn't the fact that since they are unpredictable, even amongst them, pushing them to a chaotic neutral side? Calling them true neutral would mean they always try to balance in the middle. I am pretty sure they are not enough organized to achieve that.

I am pretty sure that is what pirates are too, even though they should be half way chaotic neutral and half way neutral evil..... why this brings to mind endless talks with friends about alignments..

[HELMUT]

Both of those factions aren't exactly true factions to begin with, it depends on the individuals. Pirates can be either chaotic good or lawful evil depending on who's in charge, same thing for the independents. But in average, Pirates have a higher chance of being douches, therefore chaotic evil, while Independents are just trying to survive, if possible in a relatively civilised manner, so closer to true neutral.

As Hist said, alignements are originally for individuals, so it doesn't works that well for groups of people, and even less for disunited groups like those two.

[kazi]

Wooo! Go team evil! I'd say we're more than strong enough to wipe out the forces of good, although those despicable neutrals may give us a bit of difficulty.

[Weltall]

I more like called their banner Chaotic Neutral, rather than the individuals. As in when someone sees their banner, they will not know what to except. Definitely for pirates they will expect the worse, but with idependent, people will wonder if they will be indeed helpful individuals, individuals that do not care or some that will backstab them. I always had in mind that this is what Chaotic represents. Inability to know what will happen. True neutral would go to the side that give them profit in any way of course, but I am talking about something else.

A true neutral, and correct me if I am wrong, does not really exist. Which is why the graph is perfect, since I see Histidine put in the center only the traders. I guess Independent would be leaning towards Chaotic Neutral and maybe Chaotic Good, since they do not really want to follow laws, but would not backstab as easily as a pirate, that they are leaning towards too Chaotic Evil. To me the fact that each goes on their own translates more to Chaotic, not because I believe in the Independent there are no people that believe that following laws is the right thing, but because others that see their banner will not see them as that. It's a banner that smells uncertainty and well.. chaos XD Again. I do not talk about them, since indeed independent should be all over the chart >.>

PS: kazi, keep in mine that team evil has Nights Templar and Dark Spire. I think these two will not help if they are on your side.. just a thought XD

[David]

This is super fun!

(So where would the Domain end up? Probably near the Hegemony, huh. I suppose you don't have a faction icon for them, do you. Right, right... I will say in general I've kinda wanted to avoid a clear-cut "good" faction because I feel that'd make choosing your side way too easy/simple a choice. Well, we'll just have to see how the game pans out, won't we

[MShadowy]

Nifty graph, Histidine.  Kinda surprised we have a lawful good faction as well, haha.

I do kinda agree with David that having out and out good guys can make deciding on your side a bit too easy, but I kinda painted my way into a corner with the SRA's ideology, which even given some pragmatic reasons for it (a stable sector is better for everyone, creating networks of political allies, etc.) is still outright altruistic.

[Harmful Mechanic]

I have seen my share of altruists get in trouble by 'knowing', earnestly, what's 'best' for other people, and trying to enforce it.

[DMCN]

haha,  believe me, the kinghts (not the knight templar) will be the chaotic good

[borgrel]

there is nothing chaotic about the knights templar!
they have a code and they follow that code fanatically ...... thats lawful (evil/something)!


almost any orginisation worth its name will fall into a lawful category because an organization is tied together by a code of some kind, regardless of how whimsical that code/legislation/decree/docket/etc seems from the outside. Any1 who follows it is part of the group, any1 who doesn't follow it is expelled ..... and that makes it lawful.

dictatorships/despots/kings/etc or any other group that exists to please/follow a single individual may have the alignment trait of that individual (unless that person is buried and barricaded behind a bureaucracy like a president). Thats about the only time you can have an 'organization' with a chaotic alignment.

The pirates are chaotic because they're not an organization but an affiliation of individuals ..... they may have a few globally shared taboos but there is nothing dictating the method in which they carry out their piracy, nor a dress code, etc. A pirate will never be accused of not carrying out the operation "by the book".


normally chaotics are individuals within each system that are ostracized because they dont tow the line but dont outright defy, they walk the edge of whats 'legal' (within the organization they inhabit) while trying to follow their personal convictions/conscience.

A chaotic organization is a truely rare thing.

[Tartiflette]

He is talking about the chinese Knight mod, that has yet to be translated, not the Knight Templars.

Now about the classification of organizations, I agree that this system is too limited: there should be an adjective for how "lawful/chaotic" it is internally and one for how it is percieved by others. I liked the idea in Mass Effect of Paragon/Renegade: both have the same ultimate goal so it's clearly not bland Good/Evil but it qualifies well the means used to get to that goal.

So yeah this classification would be better as a cube with Good/Evil (end goal) Lawful/Chaotic (internal organization) Paragon/Renegade (external perception)
With that system the Templars would be Evil (kill anyone that isn't a Templar) Lawful (rigid hierarchy) Paragon (never tries to decieve, always fight head-on, declare war beforehand)
Diable Avionics on the other hand would be Evil Lawful Renegade (sell weapons to pirates, enslave prisoners etc)
Scy Nation would be Neutral Good (survival first, but trying to have the smallest negative impact on the rest of the sector) slightly Lawful (they have an elected government, though it changed a lot) and went from full on Renegade in their pirates days to Neutral (spies and play everyone against each other to avoid being invaded, but tries to maintain the status-quo in the balance of powers)

For Vanilla,
Hegemony would be straight Neutral Lawful Neutral,
Sindrian Diktat Neutral Lawful Renegade,
Luddic Church almost Good Lawful Paragon,
Tritachyon almost Evil almost Chaotic slightly Renegade,
Pirates obviously slightly Evil Chaotic Renegade...