Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Achataeon]

Minmaxers gonna minmax. Convincing them otherwise is like talking to a brick wall. Besides, it's a Single Player Game.

Every one of us was drawn to this game because of a thing/feature that we like. Some fell in love with the missions, some with combat, and some to the minmaxableness of the game. Should you have problems with the CR and such, why not mod it? Starsector is a Single Player Game after all.

[Talkie Toaster]

I feel like a Mule would be a very desirable pick for a lot of players, especially for trade-focused playstyles. But what if the 'Honest Trader' start was a Tarsus or Buffalo?

Getting caught by a pirate fleet would be a straight up GG. You need to have some combat capability, or at least a decent chance to flee combat. A Condor (with a wing of something) or a Gemini would be much more doable, but even if they have an okay chance of surviving a small patrol it's too easy to be caught by large pirate fleets they can't possibly escape from.

[Zapier]

I feel like a Mule would be a very desirable pick for a lot of players, especially for trade-focused playstyles. But what if the 'Honest Trader' start was a Tarsus or Buffalo?

Getting caught by a pirate fleet would be a straight up GG. You need to have some combat capability, or at least a decent chance to flee combat. A Condor (with a wing of something) or a Gemini would be much more doable, but even if they have an okay chance of surviving a small patrol it's too easy to be caught by large pirate fleets they can't possibly escape from.

I always felt like the Sheperds made for a much better 'honest trader' starter frigate. Minimal crew, 100 cargo, and relatively light supply cost despite its 20% per deployment. Those borer drones are really good for actually defending and even taking on small pirate fleets, especially hounds and kites since they give nice constant support. Leaves a player their money to literally buy supplies and focus on staying out/away from combat.

Edit: Not to mention... the shield. It to me makes better sense for the average player choosing honest trader start... even though the Cerberus can be quite dangerous, it suffers from the fact that players who aren't prepared to take some damage are easily taken out by missiles and beam wolves right from the start...

[Cik]

cerberus would be good but wolf (D) ion fits fry it, and they're in every fleet you're going to get caught by.

[Clockwork Owl]

I always felt like the Sheperds made for a much better 'honest trader' starter frigate. Minimal crew, 100 cargo, and relatively light supply cost despite its 20% per deployment. Those borer drones are really good for actually defending and even taking on small pirate fleets, especially hounds and kites since they give nice constant support. Leaves a player their money to literally buy supplies and focus on staying out/away from combat.

Edit: Not to mention... the shield. It to me makes better sense for the average player choosing honest trader start... even though the Cerberus can be quite dangerous, it suffers from the fact that players who aren't prepared to take some damage are easily taken out by missiles and beam wolves right from the start...

It gives decent PD screen without a carrier. Problem is 90 max speed tho.

[Serenitis]

Getting caught by a pirate fleet would be a straight up GG. You need to have some combat capability, or at least a decent chance to flee combat.

Mule has both. And probably the 2_nd best ship system in the game.
The only serious problem the Mule would have is being swarmed, which is same issue every ship has when you only have one of them.

I do like the idea of having Sheperds being the trader start ship though. Dog freighters are even more of a trap than they were previously as almost all pirates carry ion cannons now.
Although the idea of a "civilian" destroyer is pretty interesting.
You could even make a Hinny (A Mule but with parents the opposite way round); similar handling and armour, but a little smaller so it can't carry as much and a similar weapons load. Maybe drop the medium E to a small and lose one missile rack?

The important bit would be the handling and armour - the two biggest problems I have with frigates are that I just can't control them even with the turn-to-cursor thing on, and that they're really fragile and even a single hit in the wrong place can end you.
These two problems synergise to a really obnoxious degree in that the fragility of the frigate can be mitigated by sliding around all over the place, dodging/weaving etc. but if you lack the ability to do that consistently then you are going to hit a big wall pretty quickly.
[edit]
And turrets. Being able to move freely and still shoot at things makes it quite a lot easier. Probably why I am such a huge fan of the Enforcer.

[Zapier]

I always felt like the Sheperds made for a much better 'honest trader' starter frigate. Minimal crew, 100 cargo, and relatively light supply cost despite its 20% per deployment. Those borer drones are really good for actually defending and even taking on small pirate fleets, especially hounds and kites since they give nice constant support. Leaves a player their money to literally buy supplies and focus on staying out/away from combat.

Edit: Not to mention... the shield. It to me makes better sense for the average player choosing honest trader start... even though the Cerberus can be quite dangerous, it suffers from the fact that players who aren't prepared to take some damage are easily taken out by missiles and beam wolves right from the start...

It gives decent PD screen without a carrier. Problem is 90 max speed tho.

Yeah, the speed is a bit of an issue, but those drones help keep stuff off the ship that other ships usually can't do without a dedicated escort. Plus, since the design itself lets you outfit it relatively light, especially if you rely on the drones/escorts you could easily outfit it with the unstable injector at the start to give some extra speed.

Alternatively, perhaps there could be a 'non-civilian' variant of the Shepherd made with a sort of built in engine upgrade at the cost of like, half its armor. Something to give it a 10 burn level or an extra 20 max speed to put it on par with the cerberus... and then a player could choose the injector to get to 150. It would easily give it plenty of escape potential against most targets and the drones/shields should be enough to deter much that could keep up. With the lessened armor it would keep it as more of trade frigate as it would be quite fragile to expose to much risk.

I don't know... all just thoughts really... I just know I love the Shepherd over the Cerberus for civilian trading and I prefer it as a combat frigate despite it being lesser in most ways on paper since it has that built in 'fighter wing' to escort it.

Edit: And a quick thought about the discussion of a mule or new variant of it. Love the idea of some more variants of it as well, I just don't see a lot of justification of having a destroyer for a starter ship, even if its just available the one time during choosing.

Edit 2: I completely forgot about the best draw of the Shepherd if you're worried about its 90 speed... because you rely on the drones (and I like a salamander missile in the universal) you're running at zero flux most of the flight anyway. Most anything even getting close is either fighting your drones or running with shields ruining their own zero flux boost which keeps the Shepherd easily at comparable or faster speeds without any hull mods.

[Clockwork Owl]

I always felt like the Sheperds made for a much better 'honest trader' starter frigate. Minimal crew, 100 cargo, and relatively light supply cost despite its 20% per deployment. Those borer drones are really good for actually defending and even taking on small pirate fleets, especially hounds and kites since they give nice constant support. Leaves a player their money to literally buy supplies and focus on staying out/away from combat.

Edit: Not to mention... the shield. It to me makes better sense for the average player choosing honest trader start... even though the Cerberus can be quite dangerous, it suffers from the fact that players who aren't prepared to take some damage are easily taken out by missiles and beam wolves right from the start...

It gives decent PD screen without a carrier. Problem is 90 max speed tho.

Yeah, the speed is a bit of an issue, but those drones help keep stuff off the ship that other ships usually can't do without a dedicated escort. Plus, since the design itself lets you outfit it relatively light, especially if you rely on the drones/escorts you could easily outfit it with the unstable injector at the start to give some extra speed.

Alternatively, perhaps there could be a 'non-civilian' variant of the Shepherd made with a sort of built in engine upgrade at the cost of like, half its armor. Something to give it a 10 burn level or an extra 20 max speed to put it on par with the cerberus... and then a player could choose the injector to get to 150. It would easily give it plenty of escape potential against most targets and the drones/shields should be enough to deter much that could keep up. With the lessened armor it would keep it as more of trade frigate as it would be quite fragile to expose to much risk.

I don't know... all just thoughts really... I just know I love the Shepherd over the Cerberus for civilian trading and I prefer it as a combat frigate despite it being lesser in most ways on paper since it has that built in 'fighter wing' to escort it.

Edit: And a quick thought about the discussion of a mule or new variant of it. Love the idea of some more variants of it as well, I just don't see a lot of justification of having a destroyer for a starter ship, even if its just available the one time during choosing.

Edit 2: I completely forgot about the best draw of the Shepherd if you're worried about its 90 speed... because you rely on the drones (and I like a salamander missile in the universal) you're running at zero flux most of the flight anyway. Most anything even getting close is either fighting your drones or running with shields ruining their own zero flux boost which keeps the Shepherd easily at comparable or faster speeds without any hull mods.

Default 90 + Zero flux 50(it is flat 50 from frigate to capital right?) + Unstable Injector 20 = 160.
Burn speed 8.

-

Hound has 180, meaning it will still outrun a Shepherd while shooting guns at it. Hound(D) Has 135. Zero flux makes it 185. Shepherd has to punch the hell out of it in combat.
Maybe it won't be that hard, considering Hound is shieldless.
Burn 10 means Shepherd can't shake Hound off in campaign(assuming 1-ship-fleet).

Cerberus's max speed is 110. Can barely keep it up with Shepherd with 0 flux. Also shieldless.
again, burn 10.

Kite has 140. (D) variant makes it 105 - no pursuing even with 0 flux.
Burn 9.

Wolf: 150. (D) is 101. Again, no pursuit.
Burn 10.

Conclusion: Unless the pirate fleet has a Hound, a Shepherd can avoid most threat from pirates - except being harried to death.

-

Can we consider this passable? It might be...

[Plantissue]

I've tried using a single Mule. On paper it sounds like great idea. It has reasonably good maintence to cargo capacity with near combat ship defence. In practice it is a burn 9 fleet which can't fight effectively as they are too slow and unmanoeuvrable even with maneuvering jets and with too few weapons to put up a good fight even against a Luddic Cerberus. It's simply more effective to have a Buffalo/Tarsus + combat ship though your fuel consumption would be relatively higher per cargo space as well as the problem with having a civilian hull broadcasting your location. A Gemini start also would make for a real freighter/combat combo, though it'll probably be too easy. i don't really see any justification for a destroyer start under standard difficulty.

The Cerberus is the equivalent to a mini Mule anyways. A freighter combat hybrid which doesn't have a civilian hull.
The problem with a Shepard start is that it has a civilian hull, though it would be an interesting "honest" trader start seeing as unlike the Cerberus, it isn't a better smuggler starting ship than the Hound actually is!

The Hound is a bit wierd as a smuggler ship nowadays since it has the same burn speed as everything else, but on the other hand I suppose it can easily outrun the Luddic Path Cerberus.

[Megas]

Mule is good for fire support, but not as primary attacker.  Mule can fight back, while Buffalo or Tarsus cannot.

The Hound is a bit wierd as a smuggler ship nowadays since it has the same burn speed as everything else, but on the other hand I suppose it can easily outrun the Luddic Path Cerberus.

Beginning traders who do not want to fight should rip out their weapons and install Unstable Injector and Safety Override hullmods for maximum top speed.  Weapons are not needed if you can outspeed all early-game threats.

[SafariJohn]

Default 90 + Zero flux 50(it is flat 50 from frigate to capital right?) + Unstable Injector 20 = 160.
Burn speed 8.

Shepherd is burn 9, and Unstable Injector gives 40 to frigates, so a Shepherd would have 180 speed, meaning it could keep away from Hounds.

[Gothars]

I think a Shepherd would make for a terrible startet ship if you don't already know the game. As it is the only ship that uses drones offensively, it would give a completely false impression of Starsector's combat mechanics.

[Techhead]

I think a Shepherd would make for a terrible startet ship if you don't already know the game. As it is the only ship that uses drones offensively, it would give a completely false impression of Starsector's combat mechanics.

The Tempest and its Terminator Drones would like a word with you.

[Gothars]

Sorry, I meant as its primary offensive weapon.

[SpacePoliticianAndaZealot]

And that's a shame. I want drone tenders! And Sheperd's drones are barely useful for point defence, let alone intercepting fighters or offense!