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Author Topic: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery  (Read 5945 times)

Gothars

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Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« on: November 15, 2015, 03:54:35 PM »

So, I just read a comment on reddit about the worldbuilding skill of the author of the Game of Thrones books, George R.R. Martin. Therein "mystery" about the world lore was identified as one the most important aspects, enabled by the fact that the characters actually propagate misinformation all the time. The post explains it better that I could:


Spoiler
Quote
/mystery. GRRM has withheld more of his world than he has revealed, which taps into a sense of wonder crucial to good fantasy AND causes many readers to assume that what they haven't seen is as good (or better!) as what they have. Note that this second part cuts both ways : if the world you show is lame, people will assume the rest is as lame or lamer.
One of the key aspects of the mystery is that information is frequently given to the reader about the world that is wrong. Which is something you so rarely see in Fantasy, too often in Fantasy anytime a character speaks about the world, they cease being a character, their biases, ignorance, intelligence, location, education etc all cease to exist and they simply become a mouthpiece for the author to spout Lore and any time they say "Long ago the King of flergleblerg raised the fortress of blurgaflurg because of the war with gumphle and their army of muguphle" this can just be taken at face value by the audience and they don't have to stop and think Hey, just what the *** would this random dude know about the actions and motivations of people who lived and died thousands of years ago on the other side of the world anyway? He is probably just regurgitating some hearsay and Chinese Whispers that's been passed down and mutated so much it only vaguely resembles the truth

When a Character speaks about these kidns of events, they usually say one of two things too much.

A: The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
B: "Nobody knows what really happened on that auspicious night"

Show don't tell, if nobody knows the truth, don't just have everybody say "Nobody knows the truth" have conflicting accounts, have multiple different sides to the story, have multiple versions of the story with common threads that run between them. This is something G.R.R.M does very well.
[close]

Well, it's probably obvios why I post it here: I think that would be an awesome concept to follow in Starsector.
There's plenty information about the histoty and lore of the Sector missing atm, and I really hope it's not gonna be just dumped on us in big info texts. I would far prefer when I have conflicting information from factions which each have their own view of history and their own goals. And if I'd then have to make my own conclusions about what happened/what is going on. Maybe David already has all this considered, but a bit of inspiratiom can't hurt, right?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 04:00:02 PM by Gothars »
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Sy

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2015, 12:20:14 PM »

interesting read and it makes perfect sense.

i haven't read the books, but one of the most memorable scenes from the tv series for me actually was the one where Maester Luwin tells Bran something along the lines of "there is no magic in this world. if there really has been magic at one point, it is long gone now. your dreams are just that: dreams". the way he explains it, including experiences from when he and his colleagues tried themselves at magic stuff when they were young, sounds very convincing.
but at that point the viewer already knows there must be magic of some kind. even the first season of the series shows a bit of clearly 'supernatural' stuff happening right at the beginning and end. and throughout the series (kind of sort of spoiler-ish?) magic slowly becomes more and more part of the main story.

i imagine in starsector there really isn't any magic^^ but i agree that some mystery is a good idea. in particular, i think the question "why did the gates close? what happened to the domain of men?" should be left unanswered. or, rather, should have many conflicting answers (anything from "tech suddenly failed and the domain descended into chaos" to "aliens!") depending on who you ask. after 200 years, i imagine there would be A LOT of different theories, but if the people of the sector haven't figured out the actual answer by that point, it's doubtful they ever will (unless the gates suddenly reopen).
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David

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2015, 01:16:45 PM »

I'm a big fan of unreliable in-fiction description because it can imply and suggest without committing while revealing something about the motives and beliefs of the point of view giving it. Haven't had a lot of opportunity to play with this due to how most text relating to the setting in Starsector is presented as "omniscient description", but we have some ideas about this.

For example: From what you can read in the game right now, do you know who blew up Opus? [Edit: "Opis", which apparently I can't even remember to get right.]

(Also: playing fast and loose with canon lets me retcon some of the older writing for Starsector while keeping it. All that stuff about the situation immediately post-Collapse and the 14th Battle Group? Rantings of a crank revisionist historian funded by Hegemony grey propaganda. Or is it? :D)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 04:51:56 PM by David »
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TheDTYP

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2015, 01:35:30 PM »

What I wanna know is whether or not the State of Affairs is canon anymore. Wasn't it like a big outline of the story or am I thinking of something else?
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Gothars

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2015, 03:33:15 PM »

I'm a big fan of unreliable in-fiction description because it can imply and suggest without committing while revealing something about the motives and beliefs of the point of view giving it. Haven't had a lot of opportunity to play with this due to how most text relating to the setting in Starsector is presented as "omniscient description", but we have some ideas about this.

For example: From what you can read in the game right now, do you know who blew up Opus?

Glad to hear it!
I have not the faintest idea what Opus is though, sure it even exists in the current version?

Does anyone else know it?



What I wanna know is whether or not the State of Affairs is canon anymore. Wasn't it like a big outline of the story or am I thinking of something else?

Well, from what David just said, it is not canon, but just one telling of history. But as long as we don't get different accounts to compare it to, it might as well be canon ;)



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Alex

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2015, 03:40:31 PM »

It's "Opis". Hint: Askonia.
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David

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 04:51:23 PM »

It's "Opis". Hint: Askonia.

(Damn, haha, I keep getting it wrong!)

Another edit:
(It's also possible that the in-fiction mystery/controversy here exists mostly in my head/notes.) But! We'll get more into it as development proceeds, I'm sure.
... So for those into "lore", be sure to check out the overhauled missions in the upcoming patch. Most of them will relate more closely to the setting you will be playing in. ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 05:45:20 PM by David »
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 05:38:08 PM »

With exams over  I might as well have a ride back to the Sector. Had no idea about Opus, Opis or whatever it is - heck I don't even recall hearing anything resemble it.

I love the method, too, but rarely find one. Would be glad if Starsector takes such approach for its lore.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 05:42:01 PM by Aron0621 »
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Aeson

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2015, 09:54:54 PM »

I'm a big fan of unreliable in-fiction description because it can imply and suggest without committing while revealing something about the motives and beliefs of the point of view giving it. Haven't had a lot of opportunity to play with this due to how most text relating to the setting in Starsector is presented as "omniscient description", but we have some ideas about this.

For example: From what you can read in the game right now, do you know who blew up Opus?

Glad to hear it!
I have not the faintest idea what Opus is though, sure it even exists in the current version?

Does anyone else know it?
The only direct mention of 'Opis' that I'm aware of within the current version of the game is in the description of Volturn, which calls it the capital city moon; presumably Opis is now the inner ring of Salus, and had been the capital of the system or maybe even the sector. As it seems as though the destruction of 'Opis' either was the Askonia Crisis or was the culmination of the Askonian Crisis, there are also some indirect mentions of it in the description of Umbra, Sindria, and the Sindrian Diktat. (Incidentally, 'Opis' is spelled as 'Opus' in the description of Volturn. I'll mention it in the typos thread since Alex said it's supposed to be 'Opis.')

As far as who blew it up goes, my first guess is that it was blown up by Admiral Andrada's fleet, or at least by agents of his looking to give him an excuse to intervene in the Askonia system, my second guess would be Cult of Ludd fanatics (Sindria apparently being a relatively important industrial site in the sector, what with it being one of the few places with antimatter production facilities, and the Cult of Ludd is mentioned to have been suspected of involvement in planet-devastating industrial sabotage in one of the mission descriptions), and my third guess would be that it was blown up as the culmination of a civil war within the system.
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Taizo Puckett

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2015, 12:12:17 AM »

Haven't had a lot of opportunity to play with this due to how most text relating to the setting in Starsector is presented as "omniscient description
Now (sorry, SoonTM) as we'll have dialogs with NPCs, there will be more opportunities, right? Such as dialog paths unlocked with positive attitude.
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Gothars

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2015, 01:49:48 AM »

This destroyed planet is so mysterious, even its creators can't agree on its true name ;D


What I really wonder, though: Which weapon in the Sector is even powerful enough to blow up an entire moon? From what we've heard until now the common choice for planetary annihilation is the glassing of the surface, a process which likely requires orders of magnitude less energy. And that is already something which (only?) the Hegemony seems to specialize in, the most powerful faction. So who or what has the means to blow up moons?
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Tartiflette

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2015, 03:17:58 AM »

What I really wonder, though: Which weapon in the Sector is even powerful enough to blow up an entire moon?
De-orbited Killer Asteroidtm?
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2015, 04:09:53 AM »

Maybe someone activated Domain doomsday machine.

Don't ask me why was that thing located there at the first place :P


Asteroid collision generates heat. Therefore usual result is the entire surface of said planet turning into a lava sea. Not enough power to blow it up entirely. Well, yes, it depends on how big is the asteroid(and how small is the planet). It's not based on any fact, but i'd say one with diameter of few hundread or thousand kilometer.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 04:21:03 AM by Aron0621 »
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Aeson

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2015, 11:52:10 AM »

Asteroid collision generates heat. Therefore usual result is the entire surface of said planet turning into a lava sea. Not enough power to blow it up entirely. Well, yes, it depends on how big is the asteroid(and how small is the planet). It's not based on any fact, but i'd say one with diameter of few hundread or thousand kilometer.
Using the asteroid impact energy calculator available here, using 5510 kg/m^3 as the density of the target (average density of Earth, at least as given by Google for the search 'average density of Earth'), assuming an impactor density of 8000 kg/m^3 (iron, roughly), an impact angle of 45 degrees (suggested by the site as the most likely impact angle), and an impact velocity of 17 km/s (suggested by the site as typical for asteroid impacts), the smallest asteroid that I bothered to find that could turn Earth into an asteroid belt was about 11,113 km in diameter; impactors much below 2000km in diameter failed to even melt much of the planet (and at 2000km, the impactor 'only' melts ~3% of the planet), though I'd expect that they'd still have been able to cause large-scale devastation (the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs is thought to have been about 10km in diameter, so I'd expect impactors of roughly that scale would be more than sufficient to count as planet-killing weapons even though they don't completely obliterate the planet). Assuming all other parameters remain the same, changing the target density to 3000 kg/m^2 (suggested by the calculator site for dense rock), the smallest impactor that could turn Earth into an asteroid belt would be around 8570km; changing the target density to 3000 leaves the effects of impactors below ~4000km in diameter largely unchanged and impactors below 2000km again fail to melt any significant fraction of the planet's surface (melting about 3% of the planet's surface for an impactor 2000km in diameter).

Also, while asteroid collisions do generate heat, the 'usual' result is not turning the entire surface of the planet into a lava sea. You require a significant amount of energy to do that, and the vast majority of asteroid impacts do not provide that; even major impacts like the one that killed off the dinosaurs do not turn any significant fraction of the planet's surface into a lava sea.

As far as what kinds of weapons are available that could do it, how fast can the ships of Starsector move without resorting to 'warped space' or other methods of increasing effective speed without changing real speed? If the sublight drives can propel a ship quickly enough, you might not need a weapon so much as a disposable ship, though since the impact needs to deliver at least ~2.5x10^32 J to an Earthlike target to break the target into pieces, this might not be practical (even a 1e15kg impactor still needs to be moving at ~0.96c before it that much kinetic energy, and I'm more than a little doubtful that even the largest ships of Starsector mass in at trillions of tonnes). Another possibility might be if Opis had significant antimatter stockpiles on its surface for some reason ('significant' as in ~1.5e15kg of antimatter) that all went up at once; depending on exactly how much antimatter one unit of fuel represents, this might not be as unreasonable as it sounds, as even a fairly small fleet can go through hundreds of units of fuel on even short trips, and Askonia is stated to be one of the only locations in the Sector capable of producing fuel; it'd therefore be expected to see relatively heavy ship traffic and it'd need to have significant fuel stockpiles available to load into tankers for export to other areas.

From what we've heard until now the common choice for planetary annihilation is the glassing of the surface, a process which likely requires orders of magnitude less energy.
According to an estimate here (search 'Base Delta Zero' on the page), the energy required to melt an Earth-sized planet's surface to a depth of 1 meter is approximately 2e24 J (see page for assumptions used). This is about 8 orders of magnitude below the energy required to turn the same target into a debris field, and you can probably add at least an order of magnitude or two to the energy requirement to turn the target into a debris field if you want that to occur quickly, probably several more orders of magnitude to the difference if you're willing to skip uninhabited or lightly-inhabited areas or regions where there is little of any real value when 'glassing' the surface, and perhaps another order of magnitude if you don't require the planet's surface to be melted to the depth of a meter.



Edit:
Having considered this a bit more, it's entirely possible that Opis wasn't a very big moon. Using the numbers from the current version of the game, the combined population of every known inhabited locale isn't more than the low tens of millions. If Opis had a population comparable to even New York City (~8 million; this would give Opis a population similar to Sindria and Volturn, possibly to both combined if both are in the low- or lower-mid-millions rather than upper-mid- or high-millions, and a refugee crisis involving any significant fraction of the population would be a significant problem for the system), you're looking at a location that has a population comparable to the entire population of every inhabited location in the current version of the game combined; if Opis was even as large as Earth's moon, you're looking at something like 3 square kilometers per person, which is an extremely low population density for something described as a 'city moon.' According to Wikipedia, the highest population density of any city on Earth is about 40,000 people per square kilometer; if that were the population density of Opis and the population of Opis was comparable to that of New York City, then Opis could conceivably have been as small as ~4.5 km in radius, and if you built into the moon rather than merely on the moon, you could probably justify Opis being even smaller. This is a much more destroyable target than anything remotely comparable in size to Earth, given the known capabilities of the various factions in the sector, though it's still big enough that destroying it with the weapons available within the game would take a long time (but that's not that much of an issue, regardless; we know that the destruction had to have been either something which occurred relatively slowly or which was foreseen a fair time before the event occurred, as otherwise there wouldn't be much of a refugee crisis).

Also, in light of this, I now think it more likely for Opis to have been a moon of Volturn than of Salus, with its debris forming the ring around Volturn.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 02:51:04 PM by Aeson »
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Worldbuilding in the Sector and the aspect of mystery
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2015, 05:32:18 PM »

Ooh, thanks for researching it. I was too lazy for it...
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