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Author Topic: Order following  (Read 3452 times)

Rap1d

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Order following
« on: October 25, 2015, 05:18:56 AM »

Hello. First of, let me say that I enjoy this game greatly and have put a ton of hours in playing it. As everyone else here I'm really hyped about the new patch and I keep checking the forums for updates. I've read the patch notes and while I really love some of the balance choices you made (the nerf to MIRV was super necessary), I was a bit sad when I didn't see more AI changes.

More specifically, my biggest gripe with this game right now is the AI of your ships in battle, even more specifically the way they follow commands. The ships don't act according to the command description at all. The problem is they are too aggressive and prioritize chasing enemies over anything else. It doesn't matter if you order your ships to either assault or capture a capture point, they will chase frigates with their much slower ships til the end of the battle without actually capturing the point. The BIGGEST problem tho, is the defend command. I start each battle by selecting all my ships except my main ship, and ordering them to defend the area behind the closest capture point. Then I myself go in front of them, to capture the point myself, and position myself between the oncoming enemy and the rest of my fleet, I basically want nothing else from my fleet other than covering my back side. So the map from top to bottom looks like this :

-Incoming enemy forces
-various capture points
-My main ship that I'm controlling on top of the lowest positioned capture point
-the rest of my fleet, usually two to four ships.

Sometimes if a good capture point like a nav point or a sensor point is on the side I position my fleet behind it's outer side and put my ship between my fleet and the incoming enemy forces, you get the idea. However how the battle ALWAYS ALWAYS ends up if it takes more than a couple of seconds, is that the rest of my fleet abandons their defend point, and either go chase the enemy to the end of the world, or in many cases go right in front of me and into the crossfire, so I have a hard time not doing any friendly fire. That's utterly ridiculous if you ask me, failing so hard at following the simplest command, that isn't even issued during the fight but before it begins. Here are some examples, but honestly, If you want I can take like 10 screenshots like these during any day I have time to play. Remember, each one of these screenshots started the same way I described above, and for clarity, my main ship is the conquest.  -http://imgur.com/a/WQ9nj  I tried this same strategy with the rally taskforce command instead of the defend command, and issuing a command to each ship to go to the rally task force point, and It makes no difference. Examples - https://imgur.com/a/Ohozd

The distance that ships can go from a point that you issue a command on should be hard capped, and the hard cap could be somehow calculated from the ships top speed and effective range, if that's not too big of an issue, just any arbitrary hard cap would be fine tho, like a third of a screen for cruisers and capitals, half a screen for destroyers, and a whole screen for fighters and frigates. This change alone would make the combat soooo much more enjoyable, it would actually make sense to take increase your command points. For now, they are pretty useless if you want to keep your whole fleet together.

Another change that would make combat a bit more enjoyable and challenging is if the enemy forces attacked at once. The way it is right now, I usually destroy like 80% of the frigates and fighters before being in any danger, and only after that the destroyers cruisers and capitals come. But that's a bit more complicated and would require testing, while the change that I suggested above seems like easy enough to implement and would improve the gameplay dramatically.

If there is anything I could do, like provide you with more examples or even videos, or play test some scenarios for you, I'd be happy to help.
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Gothars

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Re: Order following
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 06:59:03 AM »

The distance that ships can go from a point that you issue a command on should be hard capped

It is, actually, just at fairly high values. To quote myself: As I understand it a too short leash turns ships into sitting ducks and increases their mortality.

Next patch will improve on that, though:

Improved order-following
Ships assigned to capture/control/assault/defend will do a better job of both avoiding enemy contact and moving towards the objective


I think that the behavior could probably be improved (if improvement is still necessary) with a two-tiered leash. Imagine  that normally the ship does not move more than a screen distance or something away from the assignment, but when under long range attack or in heavy combat that limit is expanded.
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Rap1d

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Re: Order following
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2015, 09:24:05 AM »

Quote
It is, actually, just at fairly high values.

Is it? The values must be pretty enormous. Look at the aurora in the top left. https://imgur.com/PyD33iH . I swear the defend command was there from the very start of the engagement, before any enemies were on the map.

Quote
As I understand it a too short leash turns ships into sitting ducks and increases their mortality.

Isn't that kind of good/desirable from a design standpoint? Punishing the player for issuing a wrong command, more specifically issuing a defend command against a hopelessly overwhelming force, shouldn't be punished any less than issuing an attack command in the middle of the enemy fleet in the same circumstances in my opinion. The way it is now, it seems the ship AI has too much of a precedence compared to the player commands.


Maybe the ideal solution would be if the leash could be modified by the player. The point of action wouldn't just be a point that you can click, but an area, and when placing it if you click and hold the button you can change the diameter of the circle. But I guess that isn't AS trivial to implement.


Quote
Imagine that normally the ship does not move more than a screen distance or something away from the assignment, but when under long range attack or in heavy combat that limit is expanded.

If they were moving out of the area in a defensive manner, I honestly wouldn't mind that much. But that honestly never ever ever happens. I haven't seen it once. Ships will fly 2 screens away from the area they are supposed to defend with 75% flux already right into the enemy lines :-/ .
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HELMUT

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Re: Order following
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2015, 10:11:12 AM »

If i recall correctly, the ship AI will be influenced by the personality of its officer in 0.7. A cautious captain will be more likely to stick to a "defend area" order until it get swarmed by enemy ships. On the other hand, an aggressive one will interpret a defend order in a more... Contentious way.
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Alex

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Re: Order following
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2015, 10:17:00 AM »

About that screenshot: the issue here is not the leash range, but the AI's behavior when it decides that it's "engaged" by an enemy, and how it goes about trying to disengage. In the version you're playing, it doesn't do a good job of it at all - hence that Aurora ending up halfway across the map because it couldn't, at any point, figure out how to (in its mind, safely) get back to where it wants to be.

In 0.7a, that's been greatly improved - you shouldn't see this sort of thing much at all. It'd take a real concentration of enemy forces for a ship to be unable to disengage.

That said, Defend still has a high degree of freedom. It's just that now you should be more reliably able to see what it is, and place the waypoints accordingly.


If i recall correctly, the ship AI will be influenced by the personality of its officer in 0.7. A cautious captain will be more likely to stick to a "defend area" order until it get swarmed by enemy ships. On the other hand, an aggressive one will interpret a defend order in a more... Contentious way.

That's not actually how it works; captain personalities only affect direct combat behavior. That might translate into, say, a cautious captain defending more ...  cautiously (i.e. staying further away from *enemies*), but there's no "interpreting the order differently".
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HELMUT

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Re: Order following
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2015, 10:55:06 AM »

When i said interpreting orders, i meant it as a bigger "leash" range... If the officer's personality doesn't affect in any ways orders from the player, then it would be interesting to eventually think about a future "hold ground" order when you really don't want a ship to move. Think there were a thread about this somewhere...

Until now i thought a giving a defend order to a cautious officer would make it more or less a turret, while the same order to an aggressive captain would be more of "attack anything that enter the area" like it currently is.
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Alex

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Re: Order following
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2015, 11:01:53 AM »

Until now i thought a giving a defend order to a cautious officer would make it more or less a turret, while the same order to an aggressive captain would be more of "attack anything that enter the area" like it currently is.

I'm not sure that'd make sense. Staying in place is one of the more dangerous things a ship can do.

What'll happen is a cautious captain will try keep at their maximum weapon range, which may naturally lead them to staying closer to the waypoint, while an aggressive captain may try to close in to use all their weapons. They won't *always* do it, though - for example, if closing in would mean being flanked, they'll still back off.
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Rap1d

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Re: Order following
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2015, 12:04:54 PM »

Quote
In 0.7a, that's been greatly improved - you shouldn't see this sort of thing much at all. It'd take a real concentration of enemy forces for a ship to be unable to disengage.

Looking forward to this! Can't wait.
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Thaago

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Re: Order following
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2015, 12:47:17 PM »

Quote
In 0.7a, that's been greatly improved - you shouldn't see this sort of thing much at all. It'd take a real concentration of enemy forces for a ship to be unable to disengage.

Looking forward to this! Can't wait.

Is it bad that I'm actually looking forward to this much more than officers? Nothing more frustrating for fighter based fleets!
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Alex

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Re: Order following
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2015, 04:05:34 PM »

Well, I'm pretty excited about the various AI improvements myself :)
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