Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Toxcity]

while I do agree that more energy weapons would be nice, HYBRID slots for the Hammerhead is hardly problematic, especially given its ship system. It will also help to make it a more competent destroyer, considering atm you're better off getting a Brawler than a Hammerhead in many cases.

[Megas]

...considering atm you're better off getting a Brawler than a Hammerhead in many cases.

Or would be if they were more common.  Brawlers are somewhat uncommon or rare.  Hammerheads are common as crap.

[Schwartz]

Not bashing the hybrid mounts. They're just fine and needed to be introduced. But SS has a history of Ballistic being the go-to choice for most roles. They're cheap on flux, have usually good range and some fairly hard hitters. With Energy-heavy ships in the game, the lineup could use a bit of fleshing out. That's all I'm saying. And since there are some new guns in the works for 0.7, I'm simply hoping that's what they'll be.

Tying high-tech ships with deep flux pools to energy weapons is all well and good. I like them a lot, actually. But is an Aurora really noticeably *better* than a properly kitted out Dominator? With how flux is currently distributed across the tech levels, it all about evens out in the end. Low-tech is a bit easier to crack thanks to silly AI shield management. High-tech still remains costly to deploy. I say fine - leave the flux stats for Energy weapons as they are, but give the projectile weapons a bit more range?

Anyway, I might be off about this. Just my impression.

[Megas]

I agree with Schwartz.  With the exception of Heavy Blaster and maybe a few beams, I would use ballistics over energy almost every time.  Energy weapons need to be competitive with ballistics for hybrids (and universals) to work.

Small mounts:  For anti-missile, Vulcan.  For general PD, maybe some PD laser, maybe LMG, maybe Vulcan.  For assault, light AC, light assault gun, railgun, or light needler.  AM Blaster is useful as a Reaper substitute (for the flagship only) if you have no Missile Specialization.

Medium mounts:  For PD, (dual) flak cannon.  For everything else, lots of options, mostly ballistics but Heavy Blaster is the only reliable energy option that competes if I need DPS or type coverage more than range.

Heavy mounts:  All-purpose, Mjolnir if I have spare OP, Hellbore or HAG if I do not.  For dedicated kiting-and-sniping, Gauss Cannon.

P.S.

But is an Aurora really noticeably *better* than a properly kitted out Dominator?

Aurora actually works best as a missile ship.  Otherwise, it is slow, oversized Medusa without the Phase Skimmer.  It is squishy and has no shot range.  (If it uses beams for range instead, then it is hard-countered by most ships with shields.)  It is also a plump, juicy, and easy target for any ship with longer-ranged ballistics.

Dominator, and maybe Eagle, is more effective than Aurora, except maybe Reaper Aurora piloted by a player with max Missile Specialization.


P.P.S.
What makes ballistics better than energy weapons is generally a combination of superior range and, often, cheaper OP costs.  Compare non-beam energy weapon range to ballistic range.  Light energy is 400 or 500 range.  Ballistics are 600 for the medium-grade stuff, 700 for railgun, and 800 for needler.  Also IR pulse laser is 6 OP.  Light AC/LAG is 5, and railgun is 7.  For medium, energy range is 600.  Even the worst ballistics have 700 range, and the best have 1000.  For Heavy, Mjolnir!  24 OP (I think) with better stats than Plasma Cannon (30 OP), except DPS (533 vs. 600), which still exceeds Heavy Blaster.  If I cannot afford Mjolnir, Hellbore and HAG are almost as good, and they cost less OP (16 and 20 OP) - just need to remember to use another medium weapon not as good as Heavy Mauler to back up heavy high-explosives.


P.P.P.S.
For anti-missile, nothing beats Vulcan and Flak Cannons.  Flak Cannons are cheaper than Heavy Burst Laser too, and the usable beam PD costs more OP, whether builtin (LR PD laser, burst PD) or needs hullmods to be made effective (PD laser, tactical laser).

[heskey30]

I like how energy and ballistic weapons have a different feel. If you want to just brawl with something efficiently, ballistic is the way to go. But if you want a more specialized weapon that is more powerful in niche situations like a laser or EMP an AM blaster, you get an energy weapon. If energy weapons were as good at brawling as ballistic weapons, the distinction between the two would not really be much of one at all.

Already some of the distinction between them has been removed, and its a shame! Do you really want there to be no difference between the two?

[Megas]

Unfortunately, niche weapons are, well... niche.  Effective fleets need few, if any, niche weapons.  They need weapons that kill, and the only way to kill is through hp damage.

[Schwartz]

Differences are cool, but what is brawling exactly? Ballistics have close-up high damage weapons like the Flak, Chaingun, Machineguns etc, as well as long-range artillery, long-range disablers, shield crackers.. pretty much everything under the sun. So the Ballistics = brawling weapons analogy does not hold up.

Even so, all Ballistic weapons right now have a distinct feel and a distinct role. That does not get lost just because a certain weapon type has many options to choose from. I don't fear that something like that would happen even if the Energy lineup was extended or its stats modified.

[Alex]

Look at it from the other side: Putting hybrid slots everywhere is really just a band-aid for a lacking Energy weapons lineup. I'd rather see more Energy weapons so this does not become an issue.

I agree with Schwartz.  With the exception of Heavy Blaster and maybe a few beams, I would use ballistics over energy almost every time.  Energy weapons need to be competitive with ballistics for hybrids (and universals) to work.

This comes back to a general point that, I think, is missed a lot when people are comparing energy and ballistic weapons. They don't usually compete for the same slots, so a comparison that doesn't take the ship mounting the weapons into account is not generally valid. Universal and hybrid slots mix this up, but are used sparingly for that reason.

But I think this isn't the point Schwartz is making - I think it's rather that the energy lineup might need more choices for some basic roles, not that it needs to be buffed across the board. For example, there isn't a "go-to" small energy gun that's your basic damage-dealer. The Tac Laser? It's a beam. The IR Pulse? It's very expensive - not compared to ballistics, but *for the ships that can mount it*, both in flux and OP. However, medium and large have decent lineups, and there aren't any ships that depend on small energy slots as their primary damage, while there *are* ships that depend on small ballistics.

(I do have a todo item for "some time in the future" to look at rebalancing the flux costs of energy weapons to be more in line with ballistic flux costs, while adjusting down the flux stats of high-tech ships and improving their shield efficiency to compensate. That would make hybrid/universal slots (and to a degree, midline ships, which carry a mix of weapons) more competitive while keeping everything else pretty much exactly the same.)

That said, for the Hammerhead, there are still good reasons to put energy weapons in some of the hybrid slots, so I don't think it's particularly problematic at the moment. You just can't, you know, put universal and hybrid slots on everything and expect good balance. (Looking at you, some hypothetical mod.)

Oh, a new mount type! That will make the Hammerhead much more interesting. The Conquest's medium energy mounts could use the change too, I've always found it difficult to put something worthwhile in there.

Hmm. I don't know about that - the Conquest is already pretty good, and hardly needs another mount that can slot ballistics. I do see what you're saying, though. There's not a particularly good weapon to put there.

[Megas]

Re: Conquest
For the sniper, either Tactical Laser or Graviton Beam is good.  For the brawler, either Heavy Blaster or Heavy Burst PD is good.  Sure, it is not more long-range pain like another Mauler, but the energy options are fine.

P.S.

This comes back to a general point that, I think, is missed a lot when people are comparing energy and ballistic weapons. They don't usually compete for the same slots, so a comparison that doesn't take the ship mounting the weapons into account is not generally valid. Universal and hybrid slots mix this up, but are used sparingly for that reason.

If energy is bad enough that ballistics are always a better choice, that defeats the purpose of hybrid mounts (barring introduction of overpowered energy weapons from other mods).  I usually consider small or large universal slots a hybrid ballistic/missile slot because the energy options are outclassed by ballistics.  If Heavy Blaster was not so good, I would consider medium universals a mere ballistic/missile slot too.

[heskey30]

Differences are cool, but what is brawling exactly? Ballistics have close-up high damage weapons like the Flak, Chaingun, Machineguns etc, as well as long-range artillery, long-range disablers, shield crackers.. pretty much everything under the sun. So the Ballistics = brawling weapons analogy does not hold up.

Even so, all Ballistic weapons right now have a distinct feel and a distinct role. That does not get lost just because a certain weapon type has many options to choose from. I don't fear that something like that would happen even if the Energy lineup was extended or its stats modified.

Yeah, ballistics have many roles, and they are the basic and powerful weapon choice. It fits their lore - they are tried and true. Energy weapons should be a little quirkier. They were more recently developed, so they are less polished. There are major downsides to every energy weapon, even though there are major upsides that a ballistic usually don't have. High burst, high flux cost. Balanced damage, low range. Has emp, but low damage. Is a beam, is a beam. If you want to make a powerful energy weapon loadout, you have to put a little more thought into it than 'slam the best kinetic and high explosives on it,' but you also have more varied options available.

If there was a basic 'do good damage efficiently at good range' energy weapon like almost every ballistic weapon is, why would you take a quirky weapon over it? You'd put that on all your ships, and your fleet would really be no different from your average low tech fleet. This is one of the main failings of mods like SS+ and especially nomads, I think - people see this missing role and add their own weapons in to fill it, but in the end it just replaces the whole variety of interesting vanilla energy weapons with what is basically another plain old ballistic weapon - even more plain, in fact, because it does energy damage and not kinetic or high explosive.

[Gothars]

Hmm. I don't know about that - the Conquest is already pretty good, and hardly needs another mount that can slot ballistics. I do see what you're saying, though. There's not a particularly good weapon to put there.

Something that might be interesting is to specialize the Heavy burst PD laser for high range, so it can serve in a fleet protection role (while the FLAK is best in personal protection). Or some weapon to push enemies away.

For example, there isn't a "go-to" small energy gun that's your basic damage-dealer. The Tac Laser? It's a beam. The IR Pulse? It's very expensive - not compared to ballistics, but *for the ships that can mount it*, both in flux and OP.

Small lance wea...! Ok, I'll shut up.

Re: Conquest
For the sniper, either Tactical Laser or Graviton Beam is good.  For the brawler, either Heavy Blaster or Heavy Burst PD is good.  Sure, it is not more long-range pain like another Mauler, but the energy options are fine.

Graviton beam adds nothing to a ship with kinetic ballistics.
For a brawler build I see no sense in investing in a flux hungry jack-of-all-trades weapon when I have more efficient ballistic specialists against shield and armor at my disposal. Better safe the OP for flux stats.

[Dark.Revenant]

Differences are cool, but what is brawling exactly? Ballistics have close-up high damage weapons like the Flak, Chaingun, Machineguns etc, as well as long-range artillery, long-range disablers, shield crackers.. pretty much everything under the sun. So the Ballistics = brawling weapons analogy does not hold up.

Even so, all Ballistic weapons right now have a distinct feel and a distinct role. That does not get lost just because a certain weapon type has many options to choose from. I don't fear that something like that would happen even if the Energy lineup was extended or its stats modified.

Yeah, ballistics have many roles, and they are the basic and powerful weapon choice. It fits their lore - they are tried and true. Energy weapons should be a little quirkier. They were more recently developed, so they are less polished. There are major downsides to every energy weapon, even though there are major upsides that a ballistic usually don't have. High burst, high flux cost. Balanced damage, low range. Has emp, but low damage. Is a beam, is a beam. If you want to make a powerful energy weapon loadout, you have to put a little more thought into it than 'slam the best kinetic and high explosives on it,' but you also have more varied options available.

If there was a basic 'do good damage efficiently at good range' energy weapon like almost every ballistic weapon is, why would you take a quirky weapon over it? You'd put that on all your ships, and your fleet would really be no different from your average low tech fleet. This is one of the main failings of mods like SS+ and especially nomads, I think - people see this missing role and add their own weapons in to fill it, but in the end it just replaces the whole variety of interesting vanilla energy weapons with what is basically another plain old ballistic weapon - even more plain, in fact, because it does energy damage and not kinetic or high explosive.

I have always been careful not to add general-use weapons to energy.  Two EMP-focused weapons and an inefficient knockoff of the HVD (costs more OP, does less damage, and uses more flux -- but it's hit-scan).  Hardly counts as watering down energy weapons.  Even the Pulsar weapons for the Imperium have poor range and don't work as general-use weapons.

[Alex]

Small lance wea...! Ok, I'll shut up.

(Have to admit, that made me laugh outloud.)

That might actually be quite fun, yeah.

[Megas]

Graviton beam adds nothing to a ship with kinetic ballistics.
For a brawler build I see no sense in investing in a flux hungry jack-of-all-trades weapon when I have more efficient ballistic specialists against shield and armor at my disposal. Better safe the OP for flux stats.

Graviton beam is not for killing shields.  It is to add +100 more damage (vs. hull, +50 vs. armor) and not get distracted by missiles because I have IPDAI.  Some damage from 1000 or 1200 range is better than none.  If I need more OP or I don't care about IPDAI letting missiles distract tactical lasers, I use more tactical lasers instead.

Heavy blaster is for yet more damage.  That said, I do not brawl with Conquest because Onslaught and Paragon do it better, and Dominator and Eagle do it cheaper.

If there was a basic 'do good damage efficiently at good range' energy weapon like almost every ballistic weapon is, why would you take a quirky weapon over it? You'd put that on all your ships, and your fleet would really be no different from your average low tech fleet. This is one of the main failings of mods like SS+ and especially nomads, I think - people see this missing role and add their own weapons in to fill it, but in the end it just replaces the whole variety of interesting vanilla energy weapons with what is basically another plain old ballistic weapon - even more plain, in fact, because it does energy damage and not kinetic or high explosive.

In case of universals, energy weapons are subpar, except for Heavy Blaster and maybe a few beams (and AM Blaster for flagships with no Missile Spec.)  I have no reason to use energy weapons instead of ballistics (or missiles).  For ships stuck with energy mounts, it is PD beams, Heavy Blaster, Pulse Laser (for Tempest), Phase Lance (only if Advanced Optics is available, otherwise it is trash because it is totally outclassed by pulse laser and heavy blaster), or bust.

[Linnis]

Another Question, are we going to get some balance fixes for alot of the weapons?

#1
Arbalest Autocannon - The OP is high for its performance, it takes a medium slot where most cases a Light dual autocannon takes it place. While you save credits and OP cost. In the lore its supose to be one of the most common weponds, but its more like you never see AI have it, and you will never see player use it.

#2
Light mortar - A great weapon on paper, but just way too underwhelming because of epic slow projectile, the effective range of this thing is about the same as a Vulcan cannon. The only role that it would excel in is if its lasher that its mounted on managed to get to the back of a destroyer, but then because of the slow projectile speed you can just watch the AI miss with it. A higher range or projectile speed would really bring this in line with weapons like the machine gun and vulcan, because HE is prob the least useful close range weapon on frigates or destroyers.


#3
Heavy Machine gun - Dual Machine gun's good point was its 1-5 flux to kinetic factor, the large form is just under 1-3 ratio. With a measly range increase but over twice the OP cost. Perhaps better range or speed will help this out. I like this weaopn and have tried to make it work, but it just don't. The best use was when mounted on onslaught's rear and it could take out fighters with ease.

#4
Assault Chain gun - Again, rather weak. The cheap cost is suppose to make up for the slightly inferiority of the weapon, but it does not make up the fact that anything you strap this on short of a battle cruiser it will just drain all the flux right out.
We all battled against the enforcers with these things. They practically kill themselves...
With its horrible spread and mediocre range, again maybe a 1-2 flux damage ratio would be a cool effect.



You can say that these are "inferior" weapons on purpose and can make for cheaper ship costs, but most are rather completely left out as forking over 30% more on weapons is more effective then having your ship not able to go 1 on 1.

Instead look at weapons like the Flak and Dual Flak cannons, one is cheaper and more common then the other, but they both are equally effective. Just at different jobs. Pay for more specialization, less for all round common and good weapons.