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[Thaago]

I agree except for the light mortar - I use it to great effect on Lashers! Its very flux and OP efficient, and its low damage is doubled by the ship system. True it doesn't work on bigger ships, but its all you need to strip frigate armor.

[Gothars]

Another Question, are we going to get some balance fixes for alot of the weapons?

You can say that these are "inferior" weapons on purpose and can make for cheaper ship costs, but most are rather completely left out as forking over 30% more on weapons is more effective then having your ship not able to go 1 on 1.

I never quite understood that: why would you want all weapons to be of the same (or similar) power? Isn't a clear progression much more interesting, where the player can get better and better weapons over time? This seems more like a problem of weapon availability and game progression to me, i. e. you get the superior weapons too easy and early. Not all weapons have to be end game candidates when there's less (relative) endgame.

I'd rather have more low tier weapons and the current top stuff more scarce, so if you find them you're like "yeah, now I'm super strong!" instead of "about time I have adequate strength."

[JohnDoe]

Another Question, are we going to get some balance fixes for alot of the weapons?

You can say that these are "inferior" weapons on purpose and can make for cheaper ship costs, but most are rather completely left out as forking over 30% more on weapons is more effective then having your ship not able to go 1 on 1.

I never quite understood that: why would you want all weapons to be of the same (or similar) power? Isn't a clear progression much more interesting, where the player can get better and better weapons over time? This seems more like a problem of weapon availability and game progression to me, i. e. you get the superior weapons too easy and early. Not all weapons have to be end game candidates when there's less (relative) endgame.

I'd rather have more low tier weapons and the current top stuff more scarce, so if you find them you're like "yeah, now I'm super strong!" instead of "about time I have adequate strength."

Weapons don't have to be equal, but there has to be a healthy variety of choices at the top for different combat scenarios for the ship fitting to be "fun", imho.

[Megas]

Isn't a clear progression much more interesting, where the player can get better and better weapons over time?

No!  That is boring grinding.  The sooner I achieve max power, the better.  I want to fly around and smash things, not get stuck with kiddie gloves before I pay my dues for most of the game.  However, many people may disagree, and if the primary aim of the game for Fractal Softworks is to make money, masses should be given the grinding they crave.

Progression may be fine if it is justified by lore.  For so-called balance or other gaming tropes, not so much.

[TJJ]

I agree except for the light mortar - I use it to great effect on Lashers! Its very flux and OP efficient, and its low damage is doubled by the ship system. True it doesn't work on bigger ships, but its all you need to strip frigate armor.

Light mortar with the skill that gives flat OP cost reduction can be interesting, though I still find myself taking vulcans instead.

[BillyRueben]

Isn't a clear progression much more interesting, where the player can get better and better weapons over time?

No!  That is boring grinding.  The sooner I achieve max power, the better.

Disagree. This game loses all interest for me when I get "over the hump" and start decimating everything. Where is the challenge? It should take me longer than five minutes to outfit my ships with my favorite weapons.

It isn't so much the grind as the feeling of safety. I want to feel nervous when I take 1000 units of food from planet A to planet B. I want to feel like I might have to actually use that "Full Retreat" button in the corner sometimes. I feel like I don't play the "Escape" scenario enough from the escapee's side.

[Linnis]

Well progression should be in how big your empire and fleet is and how much you have in reserve to do big things.

Besides if there was weapon progression, then we need either weapon stats can change between instances of them and or much much more versions of the same weapon.

[SafariJohn]

Besides if there was weapon progression, then we need either weapon stats can change between instances of them and or much much more versions of the same weapon.

That would be really annoying.

[orost]

I look at all the aggressive balancing and feel the need to remind you all that weapon and ship availability is not finalized, and that eventually a plasma gun will be much more difficult and expensive to obtain than a machine gun, and that difficulty will be a major part of gameplay, so it will be perfectly justified in being significantly superior to the machine gun. Let's not do what I like to call "balancing to the most boring common denominator". Right now it doesn't work well because availability is almost completely a non-factor, but once we have things like missions, exploration, blueprints, industry, research...?

Can you imagine an RPG game where end-game gear isn't allowed to be an upgrade from the rusty stick you start with, for "balance"? Not the same genre and it doesn't translate directly, but you know what I mean.

[Megas]

Disagree. This game loses all interest for me when I get "over the hump" and start decimating everything. Where is the challenge? It should take me longer than five minutes to outfit my ships with my favorite weapons.

It isn't so much the grind as the feeling of safety. I want to feel nervous when I take 1000 units of food from planet A to planet B. I want to feel like I might have to actually use that "Full Retreat" button in the corner sometimes. I feel like I don't play the "Escape" scenario enough from the escapee's side.

As I posted before, many may disagree (with me).  For me, challenge via grinding or fighting superior foe because I am underpowered is not fun.  Smashing everyone (wimps or other demigods alike) like a god of war, after achieving full power (offered by base game, no mods), is.  I have more fun after I get "over the hump".  Until then, it is a grind.  Simply put, I play games to smash things like an angry kaiju, and so-called challenges tend to get in the way of that.  I prefer to get full power anytime between from game start to half game done, then have opposition escalate from there.  I dislike numerous eleventh-hour powers.  I realize my idea of fun is... unorthodox.

I look at all the aggressive balancing and feel the need to remind you all that weapon and ship availability is not finalized, and that eventually a plasma gun will be much more difficult and expensive to obtain than a machine gun, and that difficulty will be a major part of gameplay, so it will be perfectly justified in being significantly superior to the machine gun. Let's not do what I like to call "balancing to the most boring common denominator". Right now it doesn't work well because availability is almost completely a non-factor, but once we have things like missions, exploration, blueprints, industry, research...?

Can you imagine an RPG game where end-game gear isn't allowed to be an upgrade from the rusty stick you start with, for "balance"? Not the same genre and it doesn't translate directly, but you know what I mean.

Balance should only be enough to prevent game-breakers and to give all options a purpose.  I like some unbalance because it makes things fun.  I played enough stale games where so-called balance was the primary design goal and religiously adhered to.

[SafariJohn]

My view on what is fun is biased too (of course)

I love real time strategy games where you start out equal and then skill, knowledge, and a bit of luck decides who comes out ahead. Asymmetrical gameplay is important to make a game more interesting (and asymmetrical starting situations can sometimes be good), but it has to be done well to be fun.


Being super powerful is a great stress reliever, but, for me at least, it's only fun for short bursts. Having to think about what I'm doing is much more enjoyable in the long term.

[Megas]

Re: Weapon comments from Linnis (and Thaago)
Well, you get what you pay for with Arbalest.  The stats may be sub-par compared to better options, but the weapon is effective enough to be usable (and useful... and dangerous when used against you), much like Mark IX, except you pay rock-bottom OP with this one.  The main thing that discourages me from using this is 700 range.  If Railgun was more common, I would probably use it instead (for better accuracy).  But since railgun is a bit rare, I occasionally use Arbalest instead, usually on an Eagle with three Heavy Blasters (needs all the OP it can get for maximum flux stats).  Arbalest is also readily available in open market.

Light Mortar... is cheap, and if there is a ship that can use it effectively, it would be the Lasher (and maybe Cerberus).  Light Mortar used to be useful in earlier versions when I can start as a Lasher or buy one after one fight, and I cannot get LAGs.  Now, thanks to increased ship costs and locked behind relations, the earliest I can get a Lasher is the suicide exploit at the start of the game, and doing that gives me a Lasher with LAGs and LMGs.  By the time I can acquire a Lasher any other way, I probably have acquired some LAGs, and there is no need for Mortars by that point.  Mortars are something to use if you cannot get LAGs or as an alternative for hybrids or civilians that are squeezed for OP.

Heavy Machine Gun is unreliable as PD, and totally outclassed by other alternatives.  Flak is better PD, and as murderous as Vulcan Cannon against hull.  Heavy Autocannon or even Arbalest are better all-purpose kinetics (more range, less OP cost).

Assault Chaingun is very bad.  In short, poor accuracy and range for what you pay for.  Needs better accuracy and range or cheaper OP cost.

[Gothars]

Well progression should be in how big your empire and fleet is and how much you have in reserve to do big things.

Besides if there was weapon progression, then we need either weapon stats can change between instances of them and or much much more versions of the same weapon.

To both: why?

The first seems to fit only one specific play stile, empire building. It has nothing to do with e.g. having a small elite mercenary outfit or or an efficient deep space exploration team, which are just as valid.

The second: If you can only us one (or few) item(s) of a kind like in classic RPG that might make sense, you'd need many versions to stretch the player progression over the entire duration of the game. But in Sector you have use for many copies of the same thing (for all ships in your fleet), so even the 5th top tier weapon of the same kind still constitutes progression in your overall strength.

[Solinarius]

I realize my idea of fun is... unorthodox.

Not really. In fact, that's how many people have fun in games like Diablo. Powering up so they can eventually become a god and clear maps the fastest. The only difference is, some don't know they aren't actually having fun, but are simply being motivated by greed, a carrot-on-a-stick, or some other equally laughable cause (from my point of view). I see all sides of why people have fun playing games and the only one that ultimately makes sense to me is in regards to being challenged. For me, not being challenged by a game eventually leaves me exasperated.

[Megas]

Pride or power, take your pick.

I have played Diablo II online enough to see how serious and competitive many players are, and if you want to compete, you need to compete at their level or don't bother.  Even before Diablo II, arcade fighting games like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Tekken had their share of cutthroat competition, and if I did not exploit top tier game elements, you lost your credits and you get to wait in line (because there were three or so other people waiting in line to challenge the winner) before you get to play again.  Even during the '80s, some games had exploits to help extend your game and/or get your initials on the high score, such as sitting on the middle ledge to spear pterodactyls in Joust.  Such an environment helped mold me into who some call munchkin that am I today.