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[Gothars]

If taking skills out of the equation is enough, we just have to wait for AI fleets to get proper skills to counterbalance those of the player. But I don't think that's the way. Kiting was possible before skills were even in the game, after all.

It will help to mitigate the problem, though.

[Megas]

I doubt kiting was optimal back then, ships were too slow or relied on underpowered beams.  Overpowering the enemy with overpowered ships (e.g., Hyperion, cheap FP capitals, and carrier/fighters limited only by supplies) was optimal.

[Wyvern]

I was thinking of this idea as more of a thing to address chain flagship-ing than as a general solution to kiting with a single ship.  Still, as Megas points out, the teleporting Hyperion mostly doesn't need character skills.

[Gothars]

I was thinking of this idea as more of a thing to address chain flagship-ing than as a general solution to kiting with a single ship.  Still, as Megas points out, the teleporting Hyperion mostly doesn't need character skills.

Chaining flagships is just the consequence of being able to kite with a single ship for a limited time.
Depending on the circumstances, many ships can kite even without skills, as long as your opponent is slower than you.

I doubt kiting was optimal back then, ships were too slow or relied on underpowered beams.  Overpowering the enemy with overpowered ships (e.g., Hyperion, cheap FP capitals, and carrier/fighters limited only by supplies) was optimal.

There was no optimization in the current sense, since there was no cost for combat. (Funny how alien that sounds now.) You lost least ships with overwhelming power, of course.

[Megas]

Depending on the circumstances, many ships can kite even without skills, as long as your opponent is slower than you.

Unfortunately, the slower enemies tend to have better range.  Fast ships were stuck with either short-ranged pulse laser/blasters (impossible to kite without range boosts) or beams (easily shield tanked by many ships).

[Thaago]

Depending on the circumstances, many ships can kite even without skills, as long as your opponent is slower than you.

Unfortunately, the slower enemies tend to have better range.  Fast ships were stuck with either short-ranged pulse laser/blasters (impossible to kite without range boosts) or beams (easily shield tanked by many ships).

Also, ships get so fast with the skills that they can reliably dodge shots - that used to be a lot harder to do.

[Midnight Kitsune]

I think part of the problem is the crap AI loadouts and no AI skills as I seen to recall that Dark's variant randomizer and pseudo officers made the AI much harder in battle mainly because it could use better loadouts that were up there with the player.
Personally, I think we are trying to fix something that isn't even fully fleshed out yet. I mean, if a single enemy flagship can give us a run for our money and are much harder to kite, then WHAT exactly needs fixing? Instead of fixing something that most likely won't be broke in the future, how about we stop trying to balance the combat portion until ALL of the stuff that affects (like Officers) it is in?

[Megas]

For starters, put Unstable Injector/Augmented Engines on ALL ships.  Better yet, remove those hullmods from the game and speed up all ships across the board.  Ships are too slow without those engine hullmods anyway.

Next, put DTC/ITU on everything that can fight.  Carriers and combat freighters too if they have the OP to spare.

Speed and shot range are kings in Starsector.

@ Midnight Kitsune:  Good idea, although more than one ship needs skills too or else a savvy player will assassinate the enemy flagship ASAP with an alpha strike then finish off the unskilled fleet with ease.

P.S.  Another way to stop some kiting is to remove the Gunnery Implants 5 perk, Entoptic Rangefinder, from the game; or at least change the effect from more range to more damage (as was done to sensor objectives).  It is very powerful.

P.P.S.  If more speed to all ships is a good enough idea to implement, then Unstable Injector can be removed, and Augmented Engines can be a minor hullmod that adds +1 or +2 to burn speed and maybe +5 to combat speed.

[Midnight Kitsune]

@ Midnight Kitsune:  Good idea, although more than one ship needs skills too or else a savvy player will assassinate the enemy flagship ASAP with an alpha strike then finish off the unskilled fleet with ease.

Yeah, what I meant up there is that if ONE flagship is enough to give us a challenge, then surely multiple "flagships" would be enough of a challenge and also help prevent kiting

[Megas]

What multiple skilled flagships will do is stop the player from winning a fight simply by nuking any enemy flagship in two seconds with a frigate and four 6000+ damage Reapers, then finish off the rest of the unskilled fleet as usual, whether solo or other usual bag of tricks.

P.S.  One enemy flagship with max Combat is no challenge if a Hyperion or other frigate flagship can destroy it instantly with four Reapers.  Two or more such flagships means four Reapers will not be enough, and player will need to build his fleet around Reaper spam (multiple frigates and/or Aurora) or just kill a few with missiles then slug it out the hard way.

[Midnight Kitsune]

What multiple skilled flagships will do is stop the player from winning a fight simply by nuking any enemy flagship in two seconds with a frigate and four 6000+ damage Reapers, then finish off the rest of the unskilled fleet as usual, whether solo or other usual bag of tricks.

P.S.  One enemy flagship with max Combat is no challenge if a Hyperion or other frigate flagship can destroy it instantly with four Reapers.  Two or more such flagships means four Reapers will not be enough, and player will need to build his fleet around Reaper spam (multiple frigates and/or Aurora) or just kill a few with missiles then slug it out the hard way.

You DO realize that officers will be for BOTH sides, right? And that eventually this game won't be about who won the battle but who won the war

[Megas]

Yes, depends how player gets officers.  For example, if player needs max Leadership to get Combat 10 officers, I do not see myself getting them until extremely high level, if I care to grind that high.

Winning the war requires a win condition.  We have none now, though I hope we get some, and one of them involves driving out every faction like in Exerelin.

[Linnis]

Yes, depends how player gets officers.  For example, if player needs max Leadership to get Combat 10 officers, I do not see myself getting them until extremely high level, if I care to grind that high.

Winning the war requires a win condition.  We have none now, though I hope we get some, and one of them involves driving out every faction like in Exerelin.

ofc not... don't be ridiculous, there wont be one ship you can kill and win the battle.

[Thaago]

For starters, put Unstable Injector/Augmented Engines on ALL ships.  Better yet, remove those hullmods from the game and speed up all ships across the board.  Ships are too slow without those engine hullmods anyway.
...

I agree that the hullmods are just too good at the moment. I'm not sure if they need to be removed entirely, but the difference in speed and combat abilities when facing multiple opponents is stark. It is true that i put them on all of my frigates - I've even tried to not, but the survival difference is painful.

I don't think that the base ships are too slow without them, however, just that the effect they have is too large.

[Megas]

I agree that the hullmods are just too good at the moment. I'm not sure if they need to be removed entirely, but the difference in speed and combat abilities when facing multiple opponents is stark. It is true that i put them on all of my frigates - I've even tried to not, but the survival difference is painful.

When you put engine hullmods on everything and it is optimal, might as well speed up everything and remove the hullmod.  In effect, making Unstable Injector builtin, minus the extra damage.  In this case, Augmented Engines would remain for the extra burn and (slight) combat speed.

I remember when both engine mods used to stack, and I put them both on as many ships as I could.  Augmented Engines giving a bit more combat speed is probably a consolation prize after engine mods do not stack anymore.

As for too slow, I think ships are too slow without them.  They are slow compared to other games.  I thought big ships (playable via mods) in Transcendence were slow, until I came here.  Transcendence makes its ships look fast compared to Starsector's.  I often feel like pressing my keys harder in a vain attempt to make my ships go faster in Starsector.  Then again, AI in Transcendence automatically leads shots.  Here, leading requires either high CR and/or Gunnery Implants, and without it, some ships can circle-strafe enemies with ease like in Doom.

@ Linnis: I do not expect the player to kill the Sa-Matra or the King chess piece to win the game, but if victory by combat is possible, I expect the player to take over all of the enemy's assets and maybe destroy every last enemy unit.