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[Alex]

I'm not happy with the Navigation skill, but this is true of a lot of other skills as well. The main ones I feel are in reasonably good shape are the Combat one, but that's not to say they couldn't use some improvements as well. There's going to have to be a major skill revamp at some point, but I just want to hold off on it until more (or perhaps most) of the campaign-level features are in, so that it's not wasted effort in the long term.

[Midnight Kitsune]

I'm not happy with the Navigation skill, but this is true of a lot of other skills as well. The main ones I feel are in reasonably good shape are the Combat one, but that's not to say they couldn't use some improvements as well. There's going to have to be a major skill revamp at some point, but I just want to hold off on it until more (or perhaps most) of the campaign-level features are in, so that it's not wasted effort in the long term.

So no trade/ industry skills anytime soon?

[Megas]

LazyWizard's idea seems interesting; that would make it a level 5 or 7 skill for me.  All I care from Navigation is the burn speed it gives to destroyers or bigger.  Making the rest useless for combat means I can pump up other useful-for-combat skills instead.

High Navigation alone is not "insane", except maybe for frigates.  It needs to stack with the Augmented Engines' +2 burn before big ships can catch up with frigates.

[Midnight Kitsune]

LazyWizard's idea seems interesting; that would make it a level 5 or 7 skill for me.  All I care from Navigation is the burn speed it gives to destroyers or bigger.  Making the rest useless for combat means I can pump up other useful-for-combat skills instead.

High Navigation alone is not "insane", except maybe for frigates.  It needs to stack with the Augmented Engines' +2 burn before big ships can catch up with frigates.

Don't forget though that you will lose 25 percent of ALL of your storage capacity if you use aug engines on a ship

[Megas]

I am aware of the upcoming capacity cut.  That just means I will use four Atlas instead of three, if drops remain the same as before.  (I know they won't.)  The speed and burn bonuses from Augmented Engines are too much of a game-changer.  Augmented Engines is the #1 must-have hullmod, used by all of my ships except Hyperion.  #2 must-have hullmod is Integrated Targeting Unit, used by all of my combat ships.  This is why I beeline to Technology 7 in every game I play.

[LazyWizard]

High Navigation alone is not "insane", except maybe for frigates.  It needs to stack with the Augmented Engines' +2 burn before big ships can catch up with frigates.

'Insane' was a bit of hyperbole, but it does bother me that it's possible for a capital ship to outrun frigates, even if it does require stacking multiple buff sources.

Currently level 10 Navigation doubles base burn speed for about half the ships in the game, especially among the larger ships. I'd be hard pressed to halve travel time using shortcuts in a city I know well, let alone while travelling through empty space.

[Megas]

It does not bother me that a cruiser or capital can outrun frigates (if the player optimizes burn speed) because it makes those ships usable.  I use frigates (and maybe Medusa) only for most of the game because they are the only ships fast enough to catch everything, and many targets are small fry - destroyers or smaller.  Anything that lets me take a cruiser or capital, zip it across the map and chase down anything short of a Hound or Tempest scout is great.  Once enemy fleets get skills, taking everything to increase burn speed will be important to keep up with the burn race.

Unfortunately, the only way to get high burn speed is to get high Technology.  That would (probably) frustrate would-be Combat/Leadership players.

[Thaago]

It does not bother me that a cruiser or capital can outrun frigates (if the player optimizes burn speed) because it makes those ships usable.  I use frigates (and maybe Medusa) only for most of the game because they are the only ships fast enough to catch everything, and many targets are small fry - destroyers or smaller.  Anything that lets me take a cruiser or capital, zip it across the map and chase down anything short of a Hound or Tempest scout is great.  Once enemy fleets get skills, taking everything to increase burn speed will be important to keep up with the burn race.

Unfortunately, the only way to get high burn speed is to get high Technology.  That would (probably) frustrate would-be Combat/Leadership players.

Well, your definition of 'usable' is different than most people's as you want to be able to hunt down and kill every fleet on the map. I don't think its something that the game should be balanced around though, because most people don't want to do that and it causes potential problems with the AI ships hunting down the player with vastly superior fleets.


I like the idea of navigation giving fuel efficiency gains and unlocking multiple different jump points and getting rid entirely of the burn bonus. Its kind of a "show, don't tell" issue for me - by simply upping the burn speed the game is telling the player they are awesome at navigation. By unlocking several different options (stars both ways, gas giants, maybe special other hyperspace points?) you let the player actually navigate better to save time. It enables player agency to be awesome.

[Gothars]

I like the idea of navigation giving fuel efficiency gains and unlocking multiple different jump points and getting rid entirely of the burn bonus. Its kind of a "show, don't tell" issue for me - by simply upping the burn speed the game is telling the player they are awesome at navigation. By unlocking several different options (stars both ways, gas giants, maybe special other hyperspace points?) you let the player actually navigate better to save time. It enables player agency to be awesome.

While I love the general concept, such player mediated speed improvements necessarily require more input and attention from the player. Relying entirely on them could become bothersome and increase the complexity unduly. A balance of automatic and player mediated mechanics seems most desirable to me.

[SafariJohn]

If you play the Ironclad mod, learning jump points and their location relative to stations is key to cutting travel times, so I would prefer if Navigation opened more jump locations rather than increasing burn speed. IIRC, Alex has mentioned that jump points can be from one part of a solar system to another, which, IMO, would be a much cooler way of cutting travel times than making the ships all go faster.

Unilaterally going faster doesn't sound like that big a deal, but it has a huge effect on the balance of the rest of the game. Since the game has been, to date, more of a tactical game, it hasn't mattered too much, but as we get into the more strategic parts, Navigation as it is now will make less and less sense.

[ArkAngel]

I like the idea of navigation giving fuel efficiency gains and unlocking multiple different jump points and getting rid entirely of the burn bonus. Its kind of a "show, don't tell" issue for me - by simply upping the burn speed the game is telling the player they are awesome at navigation. By unlocking several different options (stars both ways, gas giants, maybe special other hyperspace points?) you let the player actually navigate better to save time. It enables player agency to be awesome.

I kind of like the idea of being able to increase fuel efficiency as a skill. Especially once you start having to cross distances where there may not be a system to refuel at nearby. It is also neat to have multiple differant jump points, but how would you go about adding it so that you could have more jump points without cluttering the system in hyperspace?

E: Although, perhaps having a skill in logistics for fuel efficiency would be a better way to handle it then  giving it to navigation.

[SafariJohn]

Could put Navigation in Logistics. Fuel efficiency sounds nice. Like I mentioned, at least some of the jump points wouldn't be on the Hyperspace map.

Hmm, there's no reason jump points have to be anywhere near the system they lead to on their Hyperspace end. Hyperspace doesn't necessarily have to resemble the real space it connects to at all. Placing stars and their planets, jump points, and what-not all near each other looks nice, but it doesn't have to be that way.

[Thaago]

Could put Navigation in Logistics. Fuel efficiency sounds nice. Like I mentioned, at least some of the jump points wouldn't be on the Hyperspace map.

Hmm, there's no reason jump points have to be anywhere near the system they lead to on their Hyperspace end. Hyperspace doesn't necessarily have to resemble the real space it connects to at all. Placing stars and their planets, jump points, and what-not all near each other looks nice, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Mildly off topic, I was thinking of making a mod that purposefully tangles hyperspace for the vanilla game - jump point alpha for Corvus is by Corvus, but maybe the fringe is all the way past Askonia. Learning the routes would allow quick travel. Of course, I have no idea if the AI has the pathfinding to handle that in a not stupid way.