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[Astyanax]

Oathseeker, thanks for saying what what I wanted to say without the passive-aggressive vitriol.

You didn't notice the passive-aggressive vitriol? Okay, whatever.

You know what's less productive than someone expressing a preference for this to not be implemented? Someone whining about someone expressing that preference.

Easy there, I was referring to my own vitriol, and complimenting Oathseeker on his superior communication.  In any case, you've already said your piece, I'm not trying to convince you, and we can agree to disagree.  I'm not exactly sure why you're so fired up here.

[Pax_Empyrean]

Mostly it's irritation that, after having said my piece, I got tag-teamed by people complaining about it.

Anyway, I'm done in this thread. I don't really like this idea. I like the lectures a whole lot less.

[NeutroniumFurnace]

I agree with Pax. The idea seems like it isn't well thought through. It would turn the game (in ANY state, not just it's current one) from being a naval strategy game into being Diablo with top down starships. It would be focused on finding the best weapon and the best ship, not about strategy or tactics.

On the other hand, I would enjoy seeing unique story weapons in the game...Perhaps "The Devil's Fist" hellbore cannon, a devastating weapon used in the Siege of the Elmar Expanse. I am fine with some weapons being more powerful than their standard counterparts, but slapping a number generator on there and farming for the best weapon is almost antithetical to the game's design. Players should have to do extraordinary things to get these extraordinary weapons, not just farm Dominators until they get the best possible Hellbore Cannon.

[Astyanax]

Mostly it's irritation that, after having said my piece, I got tag-teamed by people complaining about it.

I don't think anyone has an issue with your opinion- if that were the case, I'd be gunning for everyone who disagrees.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but for discussions, reasons are just as important.  Otherwise every topic would be: "I like this!" "I don't" "I do!" "I don't"

It's pretty clear you don't like this idea, but you've never once said why.  My initial response was to what seemed to be your arbitrary dismissal of the idea- which didn't exactly foster discussion.

I agree with Pax. The idea seems like it isn't well thought through. It would turn the game (in ANY state, not just it's current one) from being a naval strategy game into being Diablo with top down starships. It would be focused on finding the best weapon and the best ship, not about strategy or tactics.

It's fair to say this idea might be out of scope of the core game.  It was not posed as a complete idea, but I'm not sure if I'm explaining it adequately- it's not meant to be Diablo in space.

Let's say there are 3 Lasher variants in the base game- and the base game would never change.  A new game with the option enabled would also only have 3 Lasher variants, all 3 shifted in the same manner.  Lashers as a class might just be less (or more) effective in that game.  Some amount of searching is required, but is it any different from playing the game for the first time?  It might not be everyone's cuppa, though, and from what it sounds like, it can't be easily implemented.  The effort involved probably isn't worth the return.

All that being said, unique weapons or ships? That could be an interesting idea, and likely more easily implemented.

[Pax_Empyrean]

It's pretty clear you don't like this idea, but you've never once said why.

That should have been self-evident: "I would never use this, and would prefer to see development time and attention directed elsewhere." Developer time and attention is a finite thing, and I would prefer to see it spent on features I would actually use. I am aware of opportunity cost, so I know that implementing something like this, even if it is completely optional, detracts from development of something else.

[NeutroniumFurnace]

Oh I see what you're saying. Each time to create a new game world, the ships and weapons are pseudo-randomized. The issue with this is that it carries an almost identical issue to the diablo in space issue. If people find out their favorite ships and weapons are underpowered in that campaign upon going to a shop for the first time, they could easily just create a new campaign with the same player characteristics in the hopes that they will boost up their favorite ships and weapons.

Speaking of unique ships and weapons, I really like the idea, but it deserves its own topic.

[Oathseeker]

Good thing I wasn't whining then. My point is that shooting down an idea immediately because you don't like it (in its current form) is counter productive. If you don't like an idea, either don't bother getting involved in the discussion, or explain why you don't like it.

Personally I wouldn't really like the universe getting randomized once, after which you're stuck with a possibly unbalanced universe. But instead more of a dungeon crawler loot fest (aka, diablo, torchlight, path of exile, borderlands etc) system. Where you can find more (or less) powerful versions of the base ship. This would keep you tweaking your fleet even after you got the composition you want. It would also encourage capping ships, as right now capping any ship is usually a bad investment. The crew lost in the capture and supplies needed for repairs cost more then the ship eventually brings in. And you are usually not fighting the faction you want ships from.

[Farlarzia]

I got the impression it wasn't that every ship of the same type would get the same prefix decided upon a new game, but that each ship would have a different prefix, even of the same type

[Pax_Empyrean]

Good thing I wasn't whining then. My point is that shooting down an idea immediately because you don't like it (in its current form) is counter productive. If you don't like an idea, either don't bother getting involved in the discussion, or explain why you don't like it.

I already explained why I didn't like it, you just failed to grasp the (obvious) point. And yes, you were whining. So let's try again.

It would take time to implement. Time is limited. Time spent on this would therefore necessitate less time spent on other things that I would actually use. Anyone with even the most basic grasp of opportunity cost should have no trouble figuring this out.

[Thaago]

Ok now, calm down.

I think Oathseeker understands that it would take time away from other features you would like, so you don't want it to be done. I think everyone here is in agreement that we would like Alex to work on things we like or that make the game better and not spend time on things we don't like.

His point is that you have not explained why you do not like the feature/would not use it. And I just checked - you haven't said why you don't like it.

Yes its often good to just get a feeling for whether people would use something. But its far more constructive to say why you wouldn't use something. That whole working together to come up with an idea better than the original suggestion thing.

[Pax_Empyrean]

Because randomized ship stats makes no sense and can only hurt game balance. Making ships randomly overpowered or worthless is a monumentally stupid design move.

Of course, you could just say that the changes are small enough to not matter for balance, in which case it's a complete waste of time whether you like the idea in principle or not.

[Oathseeker]

Because randomized ship stats makes no sense and can only hurt game balance. Making ships randomly overpowered or worthless is a monumentally stupid design move.

Yeah, any idiot can see that the loot system almost every rpg uses is completely rediculous!
It clearly doesn't give players a sense of purpose and accomplishment in an otherwise boring endgame. It doesn't make people log in to their favorite rpgs every night so they can farm for the best equipment! And most importantly, it doesn't extend time people put into a game through sheer addiction at all!

[Hyph_K31]

Let's please not start throwing around insults, it doesn't reflect well on any of us.

I'm inclined to agree with a point Pax made - if the variations between ships is so subtle as to not effect game balance/not be noticed, there really is no point at all. One or two extra points of speed or hull/armour makes very little difference to the game as we play it. If however the changes are large enough to effect game balance and plainly noticeable, I feel that the game balance as it stands now - with all the work that has gone into it - would become completely worthless.

So I might spend a very long time looking for the perfect hammer head, and would have prolonged by game experience through pure tedium. Whilst in an RPG setting this might be cause for addiction - which is a huge factor in how much money such games make - I do not believe it would be a source of fun. I would much rather spend my time engaging with throughly interesting and intricate combat and campaign mechanisms than I'd like to spend said time rummaging though endless piles of slightly different ships and weapons, looking for the one in a million that would give me an edge over some opponents.

[Wyvern]

Because randomized ship stats makes no sense and can only hurt game balance. Making ships randomly overpowered or worthless is a monumentally stupid design move.

Yeah, any idiot can see that the loot system almost every rpg uses is completely rediculous!
It clearly doesn't give players a sense of purpose and accomplishment in an otherwise boring endgame. It doesn't make people log in to their favorite rpgs every night so they can farm for the best equipment! And most importantly, it doesn't extend time people put into a game through sheer addiction at all!

Except that that's not what was suggested, now is it?  Random permutations of the base ships that apply to all of the base ships is a very very different beast from "One time in 20, defeating a Hegemony Defense Fleet will drop a single Mjolnir Cannon Mk II that features improved ammunition capacity and flux costs, and one time in 60 gives you a chance to board an Onslaught+ that features improved flux dissipation, and... etc."  Now, making a total conversion to diablo-ize StarSector would actually be kinda neat; I'd certainly play such a mod.  But I'm just as happy that it's not the base game; if I want to play a diablo clone, well, there are plenty of them out there.

Starsector is much more of a thinking man's game - figure out what ship setups work with your play style, tweak weapon loadouts to cover your weaknesses, balance flux dissipation versus flux capacity... Randomizing the statistics on things takes that away.  And if you want a challenge where the player has to try out different ships / weapons, all you need to do is mod the game to make what's available much more random.  (Or, in play, just limit yourself to using weapons purchased from the pirate base, since that's highly random to start with.)

[Megas]

This might be a finessed point, but why does the player need to have the absolute best ships or equipment?

Because I want the very best.  I want power.  MORE POWER!!!

If it's adequate for a role, isn't that enough?

Do not underestimate the lust and greed of shameless and unapologetic munchkins and powergamers who want nothing less than the best, and the lengths they will go to obtain ultimate power (if they do not skip the middleman and cheat outright).

It would turn the game (in ANY state, not just it's current one) from being a naval strategy game into being Diablo with top down starships.

Agreed, that was my first thought when I read the topic.  (Time to don lots of magic-find and grind bosses until dupe quality item drops.)

Oh I see what you're saying. Each time to create a new game world, the ships and weapons are pseudo-randomized. The issue with this is that it carries an almost identical issue to the diablo in space issue. If people find out their favorite ships and weapons are underpowered in that campaign upon going to a shop for the first time, they could easily just create a new campaign with the same player characteristics in the hopes that they will boost up their favorite ships and weapons.

If this happens, I *will* start-scum ruthlessly until I get favorable stats for my favorite ships and items.

Starsector is much more of a thinking man's game - figure out what ship setups work with your play style, tweak weapon loadouts to cover your weaknesses, balance flux dissipation versus flux capacity... Randomizing the statistics on things takes that away.  And if you want a challenge where the player has to try out different ships / weapons, all you need to do is mod the game to make what's available much more random.  (Or, in play, just limit yourself to using weapons purchased from the pirate base, since that's highly random to start with.)

It can be, but at a certain power threshold, the player can beat anything through sheer brute force.  I suppose it takes a little thinking and experience to find the right combination of ships, skills, and items that can yield the killer monster flagship and/or fleet.