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Author Topic: Markets  (Read 57207 times)

ciago92

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Re: Markets
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2014, 12:54:08 PM »

<rampant speculation>

About 99% wrong, but it's the effort that counts. Kudos!


*gasp* I got 1% right! which one?? lol

Question: how is experience gain going to be handled with trading? I feel like you need some experience to keep it balanced against a pure combat style, but at the same time that does lead to suddenly knowing how to mount extra guns on all your ships because you made mad moolah selling supplies. Some skills make sense (yeah if you spend a lot of time flying around you should be able to increase your burn drive) but others (mah macrosse missile massacre just got even better!) definitely don't. Curious to see how you balance it

Good question. I don't have a good answer quite yet. I will say that I don't feel strange about XP being used to improve areas the XP wasn't gained through though, that's just how this sort of system works. Systems that force you to use skills (or at least areas of skills) to improve them have their own problems.


Fair enough. Any thoughts on how much experience you get when compared against a similar amount of time time/money risked in combat? Or is that just going to be pick a number, test how well it works, adjust as needed, repeat steps 2 and 3 until happy?

(I feel like I worded this weirdly so example: if you risk 100 credits worth of ship and gain 100 exp, how much exp do you get for risking 100 credits in a trade run?)


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736b

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Re: Markets
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2014, 12:58:49 PM »

Really looking forward to this update.
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Cycerin

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Re: Markets
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2014, 01:47:58 PM »

Can't wait. Is that non-Hegemony flag a Sindrian flag? Or does it just mean "neutral"?
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Toxcity

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Re: Markets
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2014, 02:23:44 PM »

Can't wait. Is that non-Hegemony flag a Sindrian flag? Or does it just mean "neutral"?

Btw, is that the official Hegemony faction logo on the trade screen?

It's the latest iteration. Whether it's "official" depends on whether David decides it needs another update or not :)
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SCC

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Re: Markets
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2014, 02:25:40 PM »

We're all talking about major consequences, but how about personal revenges of merchants, which player has overtaken in some valuable contracts/trade runs? It would be something nice to see... Unless you're currently delivering some profitable cargo. ;)

That XP from trading... Maybe instead of XP make teachers, who for credits will teach player? They would depend on player's trading reputation (more trades, more reputation, better teachers. Also it may count if player trade mainly on open or the black market). You know... It's difference, when fearsome captain seek for someone, who will teach him anything (it would be a disgrace!) and when it is simple (or not so simple) trader... The latter is more plausible, especially when player learns industry/trade skills. :P *goes back to earth, where somebody probably will invent less complicated and better solution*

Well... You guys are gonna have a hard time making and improving trade system... Good luck though!

@up: he probably meant those on the right on second screenshot.

Gothars

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Re: Markets
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2014, 02:28:02 PM »

OK, I can't say too much about an UI before I have used it, but this much I can say: I'm impressed with the visuals.

- I really appreciate the effort to avoid spreadsheets
- The icons (and Hegemony logo) are gorgeous!
- Mini maps for the location of trade partners? What luxury!

Question about the second screenshot: Why are supplies, which are plenty, not green?

It's an interesting question. On the one hand, it's a neat way of managing the complexity of the data presented to the player - at first, they'd only see a little, and would only see more by investing in a skill, which also indicates they're interested in seeing more of that information. On the other hand, what's a good way to think about this, in terms of where you draw the line? For example, why not also tie the available ship actions (i.e. mothball/logistical priority/etc) and available combat assignments to a skill, etc? It'd be easy to go overboard, and the last thing you want is to end up with a game that's unplayable unless you have the right skills. Figuring out the right way to think about this is challenging.

Maybe it would be safer if you'd tie UI-benefits to both general character level and specific skill. All UI elements would get slowly unlocked with increasing level, regardless of your chosen aptitudes/skills. But if you invest in a skill, the UI elements associated with it would get unlocked much earlier. Let's say you'd see most of the trade screen at character level 20, or already at "trader" skill-level 5.

That way you'd be introduced slowly into a mechanic, without the chance of missing its depth altogether. But if you'd be really interested in it, you could fully access is much faster.

Mh.

In general I am a fan of the idea of an gradual unfolding UI, but yeah, it's tricky.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 03:19:50 PM by Gothars »
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Alex

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Re: Markets
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2014, 03:39:21 PM »

*gasp* I got 1% right! which one?? lol

About the population scaling some things :)

Fair enough. Any thoughts on how much experience you get when compared against a similar amount of time time/money risked in combat? Or is that just going to be pick a number, test how well it works, adjust as needed, repeat steps 2 and 3 until happy?

(I feel like I worded this weirdly so example: if you risk 100 credits worth of ship and gain 100 exp, how much exp do you get for risking 100 credits in a trade run?)

Not really. I'm not quite sure experience from trade is that good of an idea. It'd be hard to make sure it's not exploitable, and efforts to do that would put convoluted rules for what constitutes a "proper" trade run. It's also difficult to track what got bought where; I mean, you probably shouldn't get experience for selling supplies you salvaged after battle. Still thinking about this.


Can't wait. Is that non-Hegemony flag a Sindrian flag? Or does it just mean "neutral"?

Placeholder - it's actually the flag of an entirely different faction, which for now is just used everywhere where there isn't a finished faction flag.


We're all talking about major consequences, but how about personal revenges of merchants, which player has overtaken in some valuable contracts/trade runs? It would be something nice to see... Unless you're currently delivering some profitable cargo. ;)

That XP from trading... Maybe instead of XP make teachers, who for credits will teach player? They would depend on player's trading reputation (more trades, more reputation, better teachers. Also it may count if player trade mainly on open or the black market). You know... It's difference, when fearsome captain seek for someone, who will teach him anything (it would be a disgrace!) and when it is simple (or not so simple) trader... The latter is more plausible, especially when player learns industry/trade skills. :P *goes back to earth, where somebody probably will invent less complicated and better solution*

Well... You guys are gonna have a hard time making and improving trade system... Good luck though!

Hmm, interesting. Honestly, I need to sit down and really think about this; just haven't given it enough thought yet to really talk about it.



- Mini maps for the location of trade partners? What luxury!

Oh hey, someone noticed :) The minimaps are my favorite thing. Well, one of.

Question about the second screenshot: Why are supplies, which are plenty, not green?

Because they're used for meeting local demand. It's only green if there's excess (and only if the stockpile is greater than the *supply*, as well, since that's the point when the price dips below base.)

Maybe it would be safer if you'd tie UI-benefits to both general character level and specific skill. All UI elements would get slowly unlocked with increasing level, regardless of your chosen aptitudes/skills. But if you invest in a skill, the UI elements associated with it would get unlocked much earlier. Let's say you'd see most of the trade screen at character level 20, or already at "trader" skill-level 5.

That way you'd be introduced slowly into a mechanic, without the chance of missing its depth altogether. But if you'd be really interested in it, you could fully access is much faster.

Mh.

In general I am a fan of the idea of an gradual unfolding UI, but yeah, it's tricky.

Yeah... hmm. Platformer games are an interesting parallel in how they typically gradually introduce mechanics, and platformer tutorials tend to be really good, too. The way the UI was gradually introduced in a game like Borderlands worked well, too. I can't help but feel they're dealing with a lot less complexity, though.
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Gothars

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Re: Markets
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2014, 03:45:05 PM »

Market Conditions guessing round:

Urbanized Polity
Increased demand for luxury and domestic goods, reduced food production.

Regional Capital
Stability bonus, increased influx of new crew.

Orbital Station
Very limited food production, increased supply production.

Military Base
Increased production of hand weapons, smaller black market, reduced production of domestic goods, increased demand for fuel.

Autofactory – Heavy Industrial
Increased demand for metals and rare metals, increased production of heavy machinery.


Organics Complex
Increased production of organic compounds.

Orbital Burns (Does this mean the station has thrusters?)
Increased demand for fuel, stability bonus.

Jungle World
Increased production of organic compounds and food.

Population – hundreds of thousands
Heavily increased demand for food and domestic goods, increased influx of new crew.
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Ishman

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Re: Markets
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2014, 06:49:46 PM »

I actually very much like the idea of getting experience for selling supplies and weapons scavenged after a battle - getting abstract here, you'd have to instruct your peons to file off the serial numbers on everything or forge new ones or hack into databases and spoof where they came from or some people very high up in a government might consider you a... dangerous individual who's detrimental to their machinations. Also your logistics officers (or yourself if you're the admiral of a one ship punk trader fleet) would presumably haggle for as much as the market will bear. Lots of skills your minions would have to learn and improve in for good bartering.

Mostly though I just don't like that one of the best ways to get exp is to throw away crummy ships in battle and ANY new avenues of earning exp through gameplay and not giving myself levels through console would be far more fun than grinding tediously through pirate fleets until you can make enemies of major factions and have a reasonable go of winning the battles.

Reminding me, thoughts on adding a skill which does the standard %increase sell towards base market price %decrease towards selfsame?

Oh, and some interesting reading you may like on market economics from the Economist valve worked with http://reason.com/archives/2014/05/07/a-multiplayer-game-environment. Turns out all our theories about supply and demand and how real economies work are totally wrong.
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Alex

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Re: Markets
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2014, 09:01:23 PM »

@Gothars: Nice guesses! Pretty close hits on Regional Capital, Autofactory, Organics Complex, Jungle World, and Population. Not counting Urbanized Polity because that was in the post :)


Reminding me, thoughts on adding a skill which does the standard %increase sell towards base market price %decrease towards selfsame?

Maybe. Not sure about adding skills in the next release at all; they're certainly needed at some point, but there are already many things in the release, and skills don't look essential to the features at this point.

Oh, and some interesting reading you may like on market economics from the Economist valve worked with http://reason.com/archives/2014/05/07/a-multiplayer-game-environment. Turns out all our theories about supply and demand and how real economies work are totally wrong.

Hmm, interesting. I'm not sure about the assumption that multiplayer online economies actually simulate real-world economies. In particular, people are going to be much more risk-averse in the real world, which seems like it might lead to more stable equilibriums.
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Ishman

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Re: Markets
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2014, 09:44:58 PM »


Hmm, interesting. I'm not sure about the assumption that multiplayer online economies actually simulate real-world economies. In particular, people are going to be much more risk-averse in the real world, which seems like it might lead to more stable equilibriums.

I'm not actually sure about this part, people will spend a lot of money on digital bits.

As an ongoing example, the game Dota2 has an Annual tournament going on right now, for which you can buy a booklet that contains info about the players, gives cosmetics, and has a few other things attached to it (including additional purchases of points to level it up for more items and rewards) - 25% of the sales from this items associated purchases go towards funding the prize pool of said tournament. http://www.dota2.com/international/compendium/

That currently amounts to $36,811,700 purchased towards this one item in the subset of the dota2 market, which has ~800,000 unique players per day according to steamstats. Or $50,000 being spent on that item alone by 800k people per day. As far as I can tell, simply being online doesn't suddenly give a boost in rational assessment of the value of your purchases. http://dota2.cyborgmatt.com/prizetracker/international2014

I don't think we, as humans, are very good at assessing risk.
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Toxcity

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Re: Markets
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2014, 09:57:19 PM »

I think he's saying that a government or corporation are less likely to take a financial risk, than a single person, as there is more at stake.
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SCC

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Re: Markets
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2014, 02:25:24 AM »

Military base should increase stability and prevent world from being entirely vanished from political map, as the navy is sceptical to the idea of giving it up just like that, especially if it's important strategic location. And it would affect tariff on weapons and other military stuff. Also, it would rather make black market bigger, as there would be more restrictions, so more thins are prohibited. But at the same time violating the law would be more dangerous... Maybe not big black market, but a one with really valuable things?
Orbital burns... Aside from certain conditions that would make entering world's atmosphere more risky, I have no idea what it would mean.

And skills certainly should be put in the game in later updates. Now is the time to make trading system working.

Hmm... I just realised, that aside from hunting and buying player will be able also to raid convoys transporting mothballed ships in order to sell them somewhere else. Nice. Of course, if ships aren't going to be sold only on stations/planets with shipyards...

mendonca

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Re: Markets
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2014, 06:36:10 AM »

Without any further info, I interpret orbital burns as being an exposure to radiation, in that sense. Maybe limits growing of food, stifled immigration, hard population limit, something along those lines.
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Gothars

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Re: Markets
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2014, 06:50:24 AM »

OK, the visuals are great and the information interesting, but I'm not sure how to actually play with this market mechanic, yet.

Say I'd really need a lot of supplies, either for my fleet or for a client. To drive down the price I would have to interrupt Jangala's supply export to main supply buyer X, so local stockpiles increase (become green) and the price drops, right? My options to do that are what? Intercepting outgoing fleets with destination X? Arrange for X to get their supplies from another source? Blockade X? Would any of this generate an event?

Or, say I found a good trade source to buy food from. Can I just intercept the incoming fleet from Tartessus and drive the price up that way?




Oh, and I noticed that there a breaks in both the symbol rows for hand weapons and crew. What's that about, used vs. stockpiled resource?


And maybe, instead of "buy price"/"sell price", you could write "You sell for"/"You buy for". As it is now, its ambiguous who the seller or buyer is in each case. Not that it's hard to guess what is meant, but I find myself pausing after reading it.



Can't wait. Is that non-Hegemony flag a Sindrian flag? Or does it just mean "neutral"?
Placeholder - it's actually the flag of an entirely different faction, which for now is just used everywhere where there isn't a finished faction flag.

The Coalition? :)





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