Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?  (Read 10607 times)

reactorcore

  • Guest
Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« on: February 21, 2014, 07:54:17 AM »

Are there any plans for having an end-state for campaign metagame?

Playing the current campaign feels like it lacks a clear purpose. You build up a fleet, grind levels for your character, but all for what? Just to reset it?
The game encourages you to grow in power and size, but there is no real goal to do that for.

Then theres no persistency in the overall metagame from one session to another. You grow, become a god, then reset out of boredom and repeat the same cycle. It all feels unsustainable and uninteresting to play the game for more than a few playthroughs, mostly just to exhaust what content the game has to offer, making the action gameplay itself feel secondary and meaningless, when the focus is on a larger picture of growing big.

The reason why thats a problem is because it decides what stuff you'll even get to have within the action gameplay. I can't access plenty of things simply because they're arbitrarily locked out and don't appear until a certain time in the game. The game actively reduces the fun I could have with it.



My suggestion is a bit radical:

-Remove leveling and perks that make your ships or your piloted ship better. Infact, remove the whole leveling system all together. Just leave a character portrait and a name, nothing else.

-Make the metagame be played in beatable sessions, but the number of sessions be infinite. Basically your goal is to conquer the galaxy. The game starts off by generating a small sector of galactic space with planets, star systems, asteroids belts, other space phenomena and some random factions at random stages of conquest (only arriving with a colony ship to the area or already owning a space station or being completely in control of a star system). This sector of space is randomly generated every time.
Its like playing a relatively compact game of Exerelin mod with 2-6 star systems.

You build up a fleet, fight to conquer the tiny sector of galactic space and once its conquered, you keep the fleet, prepare it for a journey and then launch into the next sector to do the same. Each time you'll be facing different enemies, different set ups of planets and sectors. The point is, there is a bigger, overarching goal in the game about conquering the entire galaxy, with is unreachable, but the game provides with infinite amounts of randomly generated sessions which are like beatable campaigns in a common adventure game.

You get to keep your *** after each match, atleast whatever you choose to, and keep trucking from one starsector to another. Since logistics softly prevents your fleet from ever growing beyond a certain size, you'll be faced with a challenge with each new system regardless, although sometimes that challenge might be an easier one and sometimes harder, depending what kind of clusterbomb of a starsector the random generator cooks up for you this time.

The reason why this is good, is because it makes the game infinite replayable, but also have a clear goal to achieve within each session, making the game feel meaningful, even if its infinite, just by the virtue of presenting that infinity in chunks of finite sessions that can be beaten. The other good thing is that the players don't have to deal with grinding their character and fleets up to certain level before the game opens up for them, allowing players get into the fun and enjoy the game in its full glory without arbitrary gating. Persistence gives also a warm feeling for players to get more invested in their fleets and characters.

Also to mention, if a character dies (your fleet and flagship is defeated), then they stay dead. At this point, the universe experiences a small timeskip, allowing the AI to expand a bit without your interference, after which a new character you created with a new name comes back into the game. Additionally the characters that die, get written down into a memorial log that players can marvel and mourn at, when they remember the great battles they had with those characters or how they screwed up with him or her.

It brings a sense of continuity and while there is a small punishment for allowing the AI to become a bit more established for the new character to deal with, you can still get back into the action as you inherit whatever the last character had in terms of money and storage. (with a jokingly punishing small fee of 1000c for the last characters funeral).

And lastly, you get to focus on enjoying the game more for its combat and tactics, rather than trying to make an arbitrary number called "Level" go up and focus more on DELICIOUS COMBAT than EXPERIENCE POINTS GAINED.


Inb4 "ur suggestion is too radical man"
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2014, 12:15:15 PM »

The goal in Vanilla is non-existent because that part of the game doesn't exist yet

The closest thing to what you're describing right now is my Vacuum mod, only with re-rolls for the Sector every time you beat it (it has a working victory condition and a clear purpose, level grinding has been minimized, it's focused on combat). 

That's technically possible to do; I might even add that in, just for giggles.  But I'm not sure that'd be awesome fun, because with persistent fleets, you're going to reach a point where each "campaign" becomes entirely easy... or, if the balance on the randomized generator can sometimes result in really scary stuff, finding yourself in an unwinnable scenario.

I'll be honest, and say that while I really enjoy playing my mod, I don't think that's what Alex wants to do here.  Granted, I'm not sure what he wants to do, exactly; he hasn't been really clear about his goals for the game's end-path towards completion.
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

Midnight Kitsune

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
  • Your Friendly Forum Friend
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2014, 02:42:29 PM »

This suggestion reminds me alot of Sword of the Stars' survival mode. (Which took me two years to find...)
Logged
Help out MesoTroniK, a modder in need

2021 is 2020 won
2022 is 2020 too

TJJ

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2014, 02:54:10 PM »

I'd be interested in seeing how a more focussed, restrictive & finite campaign might work.

I see such a game focussing on the strategy of ship design combined with combat skill.
FTL campaign meets Starsector's combat system.
Logged

Sundog

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1727
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2014, 03:33:27 PM »

FTL campaign meets Starsector's combat system.
I've considered working on something like that once work on my faction mod has plateaued.

Debido

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1183
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2014, 06:21:18 PM »

Wait, what? Why would we want it to ever end?!?!
Logged

Astyanax

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2014, 06:45:31 PM »

The idea sounds a bit like the way Desktop Dungeons works.  It could work, but I don't feel strongly for or against it.

This suggestion reminds me alot of Sword of the Stars' survival mode. (Which took me two years to find...)
What, really?! Seriously, there's a survival mode in the original SoS?
Logged

Midnight Kitsune

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
  • Your Friendly Forum Friend
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2014, 07:27:20 PM »

What, really?! Seriously, there's a survival mode in the original SoS?
Yeah, it is under a different name so it is hard to find. It is called "progression wars" and is under the "scenario" section of the new single player game.

By the way, have you played SotS 2?
Logged
Help out MesoTroniK, a modder in need

2021 is 2020 won
2022 is 2020 too

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2014, 03:29:15 PM »

I hope Starsector will get ultimate win (and lose) conditions like in Star Control 2, and one of them is faction elimination, preferably by combat, me or them - all of them.
Logged

Gothars

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4403
  • Eschewing obfuscatory verbosity.
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2014, 04:15:35 PM »

The only official statement about this suggests that there will no externally defined end state, but that you will be able to retire your character when either you or the Sector run out of steam.
Logged
The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

TJJ

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2014, 05:03:42 PM »

Transcendence wraps up its 'campaign' quite nicely.
Or rather it did, the last time I played it.... I should probably see how it's doing.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2014, 06:43:34 PM »

Quote
The only official statement about this suggests that there will no externally defined end state, but that you will be able to retire your character when either you or the Sector run out of steam.
This sounds like it has no winning conditions, but it has an ultimate lose condition, like the Kohr-Ah reaching Earth in Star Control 2.

Quote
Transcendence wraps up its 'campaign' quite nicely.
Transcendence (part 1) still ends when you gate out of Heretic, after you grab the plot item from the final boss and use it.
Logged

Zaphide

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 799
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2014, 02:07:07 AM »

--- snip ---
-Make the metagame be played in beatable sessions, but the number of sessions be infinite. Basically your goal is to conquer the galaxy. The game starts off by generating a small sector of galactic space with planets, star systems, asteroids belts, other space phenomena and some random factions at random stages of conquest (only arriving with a colony ship to the area or already owning a space station or being completely in control of a star system). This sector of space is randomly generated every time.
Its like playing a relatively compact game of Exerelin mod with 2-6 star systems.

You build up a fleet, fight to conquer the tiny sector of galactic space and once its conquered, you keep the fleet, prepare it for a journey and then launch into the next sector to do the same. Each time you'll be facing different enemies, different set ups of planets and sectors. The point is, there is a bigger, overarching goal in the game about conquering the entire galaxy, with is unreachable, but the game provides with infinite amounts of randomly generated sessions which are like beatable campaigns in a common adventure game.

You get to keep your *** after each match, atleast whatever you choose to, and keep trucking from one starsector to another. Since logistics softly prevents your fleet from ever growing beyond a certain size, you'll be faced with a challenge with each new system regardless, although sometimes that challenge might be an easier one and sometimes harder, depending what kind of clusterbomb of a starsector the random generator cooks up for you this time.
--- snip ---

Haha coincidence? :) I was just having a think about this recently. I'm a fan of Drox Operative, but I don't feel it is on quite the same level as StarSector. So, I've been doing a bit of thinking on how to take the things I like about Drox and put them in StarSector.

I'm fairly sure what you describe is actually possible already with the modding API :)
Logged

Uomoz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
  • 'womo'dz
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2014, 02:49:21 AM »

You know that being "chased" by an overwhelming enemy, HW style, system after system in a leveled stage... Could be a crazy fun mod?
Logged

Gothars

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4403
  • Eschewing obfuscatory verbosity.
    • View Profile
Re: Will the campaign ever have an end-state?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2014, 10:10:04 AM »

You know that being "chased" by an overwhelming enemy, HW style, system after system in a leveled stage... Could be a crazy fun mod?

*approving grunt*
Logged
The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.
Pages: [1] 2