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[Magician]

Too many words. Words everywhere.

And simple and true fact is that we simply need choice and control over what AI is doing with our precious fleet. With current version of game we have only one choice, one variant of how AI will do in different situations. And of course in considerable amount of these situations AI will choose very questionable decisions. Simply because AI has only one pattern.

And though coding interface which will allow players to interact with ai logic is a work, I don't think it is that difficult and time-consuming comparing to what already has been done with game. It's more of a question will there ever be this feature in Starsector and and if yes - when.

[Megas]

The Guardian PD is useless because the two ships that can use them on a turret (Odyssey and Paragon), have a bunch of small energy slots that are probably useless for anything other than PD.  Odyssey and Paragon can use their small slots for burst PD or other PD weapons.  The Odyssey needs the bigger slots to kill things, not waste them on more PD.  The Paragon is so stupidly powerful that almost anything can work on it.

[Unfolder]

Well, it looks like the hint mods break pd burst energy weapons by removing the charges, basically making the weapons 100X more powerful than they should be. Sigh..., well, I will just try micromanaging my fleet of autistic gunners I guess...

[Alfalfa]

Well, it looks like the hint mods break pd burst energy weapons by removing the charges, basically making the weapons 100X more powerful than they should be. Sigh..., well, I will just try micromanaging my fleet of autistic gunners I guess...

Lolwhut?  That sounds like either a nasty bug or you're doing something wrong.

I just tried it out and it worked fine; only fired on missiles and fighters and had the correct number of charges, both statwise and in practice.  What changes exactly did you make?  It's just that one entry you need to change, it should start with PD.

Here's my weapon_data.csv in text format, it'll probably work if you open your file in notepad and overwrite everything with this text:

Spoiler

Code

name,id,tier,base value,range,damage/second,damage/shot,emp,impact,turn rate,OPs,ammo,ammo/sec,type,energy/shot,energy/second,chargeup,chargedown,burst size,burst delay,min spread,max spread,spread/shot,spread decay/sec,beam speed,proj speed,launch speed,flight time,proj hitpoints,hints,number
Light Machine Gun,lightmg,0,100,300,,25,,1,50,3,1000,,KINETIC,3,,0,0.4,5,0.1,0,5,1,15,,600,,,10,PD,0.5
Light Dual Machine Gun,lightdualmg,2,400,300,,25,,1,50,6,1000,,KINETIC,3,,0,0.2,5,0.1,0,5,1,15,,600,,,10,PD,0.7
Light Mortar,lightmortar,0,75,450,,75,,4,30,2,150,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,50,,0,1,1,,0,20,5,5,,500,,,10,,0.75
Vulcan Cannon,vulcan,1,200,250,,25,,1,75,4,1000,,FRAGMENTATION,1,,0,0.05,1,,0,15,1,15,,800,,,10,PD,1
Light Autocannon,lightac,0,125,600,,50,,3,10,4,150,,KINETIC,55,,0,0.5,1,,0,20,3,9,,800,,,20,,2
Light Dual Autocannon,lightdualac,1,300,600,,50,,3,10,5,300,,KINETIC,50,,0,0.6,2,0.1,0,20,3,9,,800,,,20,,2.5
Light Assault Gun,lightag,1,300,600,,40,,3,40,5,400,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,40,,0,0.25,1,,0,10,2,10,,800,,,30,,3
Frag Bomb Bay,fragbomb,0,100,1500,,500,,40,15,3,30,,FRAGMENTATION,0,,0,2,1,,0,0,0,0,,20,50,60,50,"STRIKE, ANTI_FTR",3.2
Cluster Bomb Bay,clusterbomb,2,350,1500,,300,,30,15,5,30,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,2,5,0.1,0,0,0,0,,20,20,60,75,STRIKE,3.4
Standard Bomb Bay,bomb,1,200,1500,,600,,50,15,4,10,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,1,1,,0,0,0,0,,20,20,60,100,STRIKE,3.5
Light Needler,lightneedler,3,800,800,,50,,1,20,9,1000,,KINETIC,40,,0,2.5,10,0.1,0,10,1,5,,1200,,,10,,3.65
Railgun,railgun,2,600,700,,100,,10,30,7,200,,KINETIC,90,,0.6,0,1,,,,,,,1000,,,50,,3.75
Thumper,shredder,0,700,600,,90,,1,15,9,400,,FRAGMENTATION,30,,0.5,0.2,9999,0.2,0,2,0.2,2,,600,,,30,,3.8
Heavy Machine Gun,heavymg,2,1500,400,,40,,3,40,12,500,,KINETIC,15,,0,0.2,4,0.1,0,5,1,15,,700,,,30,PD,3.85
Flak Cannon,flak,1,1000,500,,200,,10,40,8,100,,FRAGMENTATION,50,,0,1,1,,0,10,2,10,,700,,,30,PD,4
Arbalest Autocannon,arbalest,0,800,700,,150,,10,12,8,150,,KINETIC,170,,0,1,1,,0,15,5,10,,800,,,30,,4.125
Dual Flak Cannon,dualflak,2,2000,400,,150,,10,60,12,200,,FRAGMENTATION,50,,0,0.33,1,,0,10,2,10,,700,,,30,PD,4.25
Assault Chaingun,chaingun,1,1200,700,,40,,3,30,10,600,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,40,,0,0.15,1,,0,20,1,10,,800,,,30,,4.5
Heavy Mauler,heavymauler,2,2500,1000,,250,,10,20,12,200,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,225,,0,1,1,,0,10,2,5,,900,,,30,,4.75
Heavy Autocannon,heavyac,1,1200,800,,100,,10,7,10,300,,KINETIC,100,,0,1,3,0.2,0,18,3,10,,800,,,30,,5
Hypervelocity Driver,hveldriver,2,2750,1000,,275,200,40,10,13,100,,KINETIC,350,,0,2,1,,,,,,,1000,,,300,,5.5
Heavy Needler,heavyneedler,3,3000,800,,50,,1,15,15,1500,,KINETIC,40,,0,2.5,15,0.075,0,10,1,5,,1200,,,10,,5.75
Gauss Cannon,gauss,2,7000,1200,,700,,300,3,25,50,,KINETIC,800,,1,1,,,,,,,,1200,,,400,,6
Hephaestus Assault Gun,hephag,1,5000,900,,120,,5,20,20,400,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,120,,0,0.25,1,,0,10,2,10,,800,,,50,,7
Mark IX Autocannon,mark9,0,4000,900,,200,,20,10,18,300,,KINETIC,230,,0,2,4,0.1,0,15,2,10,,800,,,100,,7.25
Mjolnir Cannon,mjolnir,2,10000,900,,400,100,10,25,24,250,,ENERGY,600,,0,0.75,1,,0,5,1,10,,900,,,75,,7.5
Hellbore Cannon,hellbore,0,4000,900,,750,,200,5,16,100,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,825,,0,1.5,1,,0,10,5,10,,500,,,400,,8
Storm Needler,multineedler,3,12000,800,,75,,20,15,28,1000,,KINETIC,50,,1,0.1,9999,0.1,0,0,0,0,,900,,,20,,8.5
Reaper-class Torpedo,reaper,1,200,1000,,4000,,300,10,2,1,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,1,1,,0,0,0,0,,300,100,7,500,STRIKE,9
Atropos-class Torpedo Rack,atropos,2,400,1000,,2000,,150,10,6,2,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,1,1,,0,0,0,0,,150,50,12,250,"STRIKE, DO_NOT_AIM",9.5
Atropos-class Torpedo (Single),atropos_single,2,200,1000,,2000,,150,10,2,1,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,1,1,,0,0,0,0,,150,50,12,250,"STRIKE, DO_NOT_AIM",9.75
Swarmer SRM Launcher,swarmer,1,250,800,,300,,15,50,4,30,,FRAGMENTATION,0,,0,5,2,0.2,0,0,0,0,,250,50,5,25,"ANTI_FTR, DO_NOT_AIM",10
Annihilator Rocket Launcher,annihilator,0,150,1500,,200,,20,30,4,50,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,5,5,0.2,0,0,0,0,,250,50,3,50,,11
Salamander MRM,heatseeker,1,225,2000,,500,750,50,30,5,3,,FRAGMENTATION,0,,0,1,1,,0,0,0,,,300,50,15,150,"DO_NOT_AIM, HEATSEEKER",11.25
Harpoon MRM,harpoon,1,200,2500,,750,,50,30,5,3,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,1,1,,0,0,0,,,300,100,12.5,100,GUIDED_POOR,11.5
Harpoon MRM (Single),harpoon_single,1,100,2500,,750,,50,30,1,1,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,1,1,,0,0,0,,,300,100,12.5,100,GUIDED_POOR,11.6125
Sabot SRM,sabot,1,200,1400,,100,,50,30,5,3,,KINETIC,0,,0,1,1,,0,0,0,0,,150,50,8,300,GUIDED_POOR,11.75
Sabot SRM (single),sabot_single,1,100,1400,,100,,50,30,1,1,,KINETIC,0,,0,1,1,,0,0,0,0,,150,50,8,300,GUIDED_POOR,11.85
Harpoon MRM Pod,harpoonpod,1,1200,2500,,750,,50,10,10,12,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,8,2,0.5,0,0,0,,,300,100,12.5,100,GUIDED_POOR,12
Sabot SRM Pod,sabotpod,1,1200,1400,,100,,50,10,10,12,,KINETIC,0,,0,8,2,0.5,0,0,0,0,,150,50,8,300,GUIDED_POOR,12.1
Salamander MRM Pod,salamanderpod,1,1200,2000,,500,750,50,10,10,12,,FRAGMENTATION,0,,0,8,2,0.5,0,0,0,,,300,50,15,150,"DO_NOT_AIM, HEATSEEKER",12.2
Annihilator Rocket Pod,annihilatorpod,0,1200,1500,,200,,20,30,10,100,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,0.5,1,,0,0,0,0,,250,50,3,50,,12.3
Pilum LRM Launcher,pilum,0,900,10000,,500,,75,10,10,30,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,15,3,0.4,0,0,0,0,,200,100,50,125,DO_NOT_AIM,12.5
Proximity Charge Launcher,phasecl,2,2000,1000,,500,,100,30,12,30,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,3,1,,0,0,0,0,,50,200,20,250,ANTI_FTR,13
Typhoon Reaper Launcher,typhoon,1,1200,1000,,4000,,300,20,10,5,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,15,1,,0,0,0,0,,300,100,7,500,STRIKE,14
Cyclone Reaper Launcher,cyclone,2,6000,1000,,4000,,300,20,26,20,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,15,2,1,0,0,0,0,,300,100,7,500,STRIKE,15
Hurricane MIRV Launcher,hurricane,1,7500,5000,,500,,100,10,25,10,,HIGH_EXPLOSIVE,0,,0,10,1,,0,0,0,0,,250,50,20,200,DO_NOT_AIM,16
Mining Laser,mininglaser,0,100,400,30,,,0,30,3,,,ENERGY,,35,0.25,0.25,,,,,,,2400,,,,,PD,16.5
PD Laser,pdlaser,1,200,325,75,,,0,75,5,,,ENERGY,,50,0,0.25,,,,,,,2400,,,,,PD,17
Tactical Laser,taclaser,1,200,600,75,,,0,20,5,,,ENERGY,,75,0.5,1,,,,,,,2400,,,,,,18
Ion Cannon,ioncannon,2,500,600,,25,200,0,40,6,,,ENERGY,80,,0.5,0,,,,,,,,1000,,,,,19
IR Pulse Laser,irpulse,1,250,500,,35,,0,50,6,,,ENERGY,50,,0.33,0,,,,,,,,1000,,,,,19.25
LR PD Laser,lrpdlaser,2,400,500,50,,,0,60,6,,,ENERGY,,40,0,0.25,,,,,,,2400,,,,,PD,19.5
Burst PD Laser,pdburst,2,600,500,300,,,0,100,8,2,0.5,ENERGY,,350,0.1,0.1,0.3,0.1,,,,,10000,,,,,PD,15.6
Antimatter Blaster,amblaster,3,900,400,,1200,,0,30,9,20,,ENERGY,1500,,0.25,10,,,0,0,0,0,,1000,,,100,"STRIKE,USE_VS_FRIGATES",19.75
Phase Beam,phasebeam,1,1500,700,150,,20,0,20,12,,,ENERGY,,160,0.5,1,,,,,,,2400,,,,,,20
Graviton Beam,gravitonbeam,2,2200,800,100,,,10,15,10,,,KINETIC,,75,0.5,1,,,,,,,2400,,,,,,21
Pulse Laser,pulselaser,1,1200,600,,75,,0,20,10,,,ENERGY,110,,0.33,0,,,,,,,,1000,,,,,22
Mining Blaster,miningblaster,1,1000,500,,600,,0,7,10,,,ENERGY,1200,,0,2,,,,,,,,1000,,,,,22.125
Heavy Blaster,heavyblaster,2,3000,600,,400,,0,15,12,,,ENERGY,720,,0,1,,,,,,,,1000,,,,,22.25
Heavy Burst Laser,heavyburst,2,2750,600,450,,,0,40,13,3,0.5,ENERGY,,600,0.1,0.1,0.3,0.1,,,,,10000,,,,,PD,22.5
Plasma Cannon,plasma,3,20000,700,,750,,500,10,30,,,ENERGY,1200,,0.333,3,3,0.333,,,,,,750,,,500,,23
High Intensity Laser,hil,1,5000,1250,250,,,0,5,20,,,ENERGY,,250,1,1,,,,,,,2400,,,,,,24
Autopulse Laser,autopulse,1,5000,700,,100,,0,20,20,20,2,ENERGY,100,,0.05,0.05,1,,0,10,1,5,,1000,,,,,25
Guardian PD System,guardian,2,9000,750,1000,,,0,75,22,10,0.5,ENERGY,,1500,0,0,0.2,0.1,,,,,1000000,,,,,"PD, PD_ONLY, ANTI_FTR",26
Tachyon Lance,tachyonlance,3,25000,2500,500,,500,0,7,32,,,ENERGY,,1000,0.5,1,1,5,,,,,10000,,,,,,27
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,28
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,29
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,30
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,31
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,32
Interdictor Beam,interdictorbeam,2,1000,700,0,,,100,15,5,,,ENERGY,,100,0.5,1,,,,,,,2400,,,,,SYSTEM,33
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,34
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,35
Flare Launcher 1,flarelauncher1,,,400,,10,50,,,,,0,ENERGY,0,0,0,0.1,10,0.1,60,60,0,0,,150,300,3,1,SYSTEM,36
Flare Launcher (Fighter),flarelauncher2,,,200,,10,50,,,,,0,ENERGY,0,0,0,0.1,1,0.1,30,30,0,0,,150,200,5,1,SYSTEM,37
Seeker Flare Launcher,flarelauncher3,,,500,,10,200,,,,,0,ENERGY,0,0,0,0.1,3,0.1,90,90,0,0,,300,200,7,1,SYSTEM,38
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,39
Thermal Pulse Cannon,tpc,0,100000,1000,,250,,0,0,,20,1,ENERGY,200,,0,0.2,1,,0,10,2,5,,1000,,,,"SYSTEM,SHOW_IN_CODEX",40
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,41
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,42
Sensor Dish,sensordish,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,SYSTEM,43
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,44
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,45
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,46
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,47
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,48
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,49
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,50

[close]

[Plasmatic]

I don't mind the Autofiring AI, I mean selecting primary targets would be nice, but I feel like the game would be too controlled then with the AI taking too much control away from the player.

What I would like to see is AI realizing a big ass (sustained) laser will kill the lowly frigate it is strafing in front of me while I'm firing.

Seen it at least 10 times now.

I play with mods yea, but the game can read the files, I assume the AI can too..

Laser fires for a few seconds then disappears, during those few seconds a friendly frigate decides to strafe past (with it's shield facing the enemy of course) in front of the laser, either flaming out completely, or better yet, going boom instantly.

[Borgoid]

Now you can say, you should have turned off this, you should have turned on that, you should have X'ed, you should have R'ed, and I say that's bull$hit. Sure, I could have done these things and maybe I would have survived, but the battle is no fun. It's not skill. It's not a challenge. It's just a failure of game design that can be overcome through micromangement. This is the kind of thing that needs to be integrated into the AI and interface. That PD sphere should not automatically fire on large ships in 99/100 cases.  

Games are sets of rules players operate within, by definition it's your task as the player to adapt to those rules appropriately.

Want an example?
Starcraft (2).  A Marine in Starcraft 2 will quite happily charge at an army hundreds of times the size and get himself killed immediately, for absolutely no reason.
It's up to the player to micromanage that single unit if he wishes it to stay alive in this situation.
The tools are there for the player to use, what you are effectively asking for in this situation is Ai that would automatically detect the incoming army and act appropriately.
This removes an element of decision making, time management, reflexes, and situational awareness from the game.



You are in effect asking for a set of tools that fulfills a roll already filled by existing control methods, simply because it's easier than performing those actions manually.

Not all ship designs will work optimally due to limitations in control methods, but those limitations vary wildly from person to person.
Take better control of your ships or design ships more appropriate to your degree of control.

If you want a game that simply plays itself I'd personally suggest playing Gratuitous Space Battles.

Oh and one other thing I forgot to mention earlier, you can Pause the game at any time.

[PCCL]

I disagree. For a game thats supposed to minimize fiddling, this sure is a lot of it

The problem is this forces us to make a lot of easy decisions (projectile coming our way = shoot, projectiles unlikely to hit us/large ships we cant damage = hold) instead of making any interesting ones

unlike sc, we are not given tools to micro every single turret, we are given 5 control groups that are stretched pretty thin as is. Thats no good

im all for more player decisions, but this isnt a good one imo

[Borgoid]

You'll have to refresh my memory when it comes down to "Supposed to minimize fiddling" because I think you invented that yourself.

I'd also like to hear what you're interpreting as "Interesting" decisions. I have a suspicious feeling that interesting decisions are as a result of ship design not game design.

While I'll concede that you aren't given the ability to micromanage every turret individually (Well on some ships you are but lets ignore that) I'd like to point out that limitations in that respect are challenges all of themselves.
That said I wouldn't complain if we had more weapon groups, though I can't say I'd use them often.

[PCCL]

You'll have to refresh my memory when it comes down to "Supposed to minimize fiddling" because I think you invented that yourself.

I present the following quotes from alex:

I don't think it'd be a good idea to have an element of time pressure when making those combat-strategy-level choices. That could get really hectic. Besides, I'm just not a fan of not letting the player pause - it's common courtesy, really.

[the command point system] worked much better – you could create an initial set of assignments at the start of the battle, and then just focus on the combat, only occasionally adjusting them. Because you couldn’t give unlimited orders, you were freed from the burden of having to constantly give orders to feel like you’re playing optimally.

I think it would be good to move further away from RTS controls instead. I don't like giving minute orders to ships (and having them obey with RTS-like precision) - as you mention, it detracts from the piloting portion of the game, and you feel less like an admiral and more like a babysitter.

I also don't think true RTS-like controls can work. They require blind obedience on the part of the units, and that doesn't make for interesting opponents (or allies) when you get into a dogfight.

Talking about ships, but why are turrets different in this regard?

It's the priority system.  I noticed that Capture/Assault had "high" priority compared to "Patrol".  And Assault had priority over Capture in terms of the number of ships used for that command.  I really liked this because it lets me shift the main weight of my fleet to a more appropriate location while still have few fast ships go around capturing nav point.  All are orders that can be used to take over nav points, but gives you clear option on how you do it.  Really simple, clean, and extremely predictable outcome.

The question is... do you guys have plan to implement this kind of priority system variations to every commands available?  Like for example, once escort gets fixed, say I have a capital ship and 2 cruisers and want them all escorted by 9 fighter squadrons.  Will you let the game automate the priority based on ship value or whatever, or allow players to set it manually by having another optional option?  I think with the default option of automated with the option for players to redefine priority would be awesome.  I think you can already do this somewhat via direct order, but this optional way of doing things would cut down on some micromanagement.

Hmm. The question, for me, is how much that would actually get you. It'll add some complexity - and I think we probably agree that less complexity is better here, to help with the learning curve. So I'll have to give you something of a non-answer - I'll have to wait and see how it pans out.

The scenario you describe - 9 fighter squadrons and 3 large ships - that's already 12 ships deployed. Sure, it'll come up, but it probably won't come up very often - probably in a fight where you have the edge in fleet points, and have captured a Comm Relay or two, to boot. If direct orders (via "assign task") are enough to deal with any needed details here, then that may be good enough. After all, chances are that auto-assign won't get it all wrong - you may want to tweak an assignment or two, but shouldn't have to reassign everything.

In general, I'm a bit wary about letting the player tweak priorities, because they've been assigned rather carefully. Changing them can lead to some unexpected assignments (don't have any examples handy, unfortunately). The most I could see doing is highighting a single assignment as a "priority" one, but then, a few direct orders should do the job here, too.

There are more, but I hope this makes clear what alex's vision for the game is.



Interesting decisions are decisions with more options that are less obvious which one is better. Let's face it, when missiles are burning out and heading away from you, there's usually no reason to shoot it whereas for example an interesting decision would be how do we kill that dominator with our destroyer and frigate escorts?

There are multiple answers to that question, we can send our frigates to flank while we attract her attention, we can get together and concentrate fire, hoping she'd raise shields and be too full of flux to do meaningful damage, we can run away, cap everything else on the map before finally engaging with +75 speed and %20 damage boost, or we harass her, move around the edge of her firing range, until her captain decides to burn drive, then use that moment of opportunity to get the entire fleet on her back, disable engine quickly, then go to town. You see where I'm going here

However complex you make the decision of PD or no PD, (and usually it's not that complex of a decision, I just leave it on all the time unless flux is high and I NEED those main guns firing, ) it almost always comes down to all PD weapons free, or all hold fire, a binary decision (at most you can divide it into maybe 3 sections, but even that's impractical IMO, and stock variants seem to make it clear that that's not the way to do things). There's no way to prioritize a certain missile, or prioritize a certain type of missiles, short of shooting down missiles yourself (and we all know how that goes). Point defense isn't a job for players, I don't think, we should be commanding the point defense, not controlling it, and for it to be fit for commanding, it needs to, like other things we command (ships and fighters) be competent on its own. (Not to say the current SHOOT EVERYTHING logic is incompetent, but it could definitely be a LOT better)

[Borgoid]

To save time I'm going to avoid quotes for formatting -

#1 I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to here. It seems like a completely irrelevant -and contradicting- line.

#2 That directly reinforces the concept that you should spend more time physically and intelligently controlling YOUR ship, micromanaging and " Fiddling" with it to play well.

#3 I never suggested a complete conversion to RTS controls so again this seems a bit irrelevant. I'll point out -again- that the tools are already there with some basic AI that allow you to minimize micromanagement to a point.

#4 At the end of his post it's pointed out that weapon assignments are already assigned " Rather carefully" and that giving customization tools changes the game balance. Playing according to the existing weapon design principles seems like the more natural course of action.




Lets just throw away the word " Decision" and replace it with "Choice", it's a bit more appropriate.

If a situation has an objectively correct course of action that is mathematically determinable to be better or logically deducible in the time given, it's not a meaningful or interesting choice. There has to be ambiguity or it's an opportunity to fail but it's not really a choice.
That's going to vary wildly based on the player which makes it extremely complex but the definition remains.

Secondly, branching decision making based on Interesting or Meaningful choices will inevitably lead to mathematical or logical "forced" choices.

With regards to whether or not PD in its current state leads to interesting or meaningful choices right now. I'd say it does by its unintelligent nature. It automatically adds ambiguity to leaving weapons on Autofire

As you pointed out you can't decide which missiles should be killed first - unless you take control manually. That choice alone is incredibly complicated as you'll sacrifice ship control in other areas to do so and also the overall effectiveness of the PD because simply put you can't -practically- be as accurate as the autofire.


More options don't make choices interesting, they just make them more complex.
Adding more options to a multiple choice question with a correct answer does NOT make it a meaningful choice, it just makes you consider more options before deciding upon the correct one.


I like the current PD system for player controlled ships, it works well.

The AI flown ships is another story entirely... Some days I want to burn that to the ground.

[Andy H.K.]

I am fine with PD shooting non-missile/fighter except for 3 weapons: Burst PD Laser, Heavy Burst Laser, and Guardian PD system.

For the other weapons, I'm fine with them shooting other stuffs. Low tech PD got enough ammo to waste, and high tech PD laser can switch targets on the fly. The likes of machine guns and regular PD laser can even form an integral part of DPS against frigates.

However for the 3 weapons I mentioned in the first line of this post, they are limited charges, burst-type PD weapon, and their performance really suffer due to the inadequate AI. Actually, when they work, the worked greatly. I usually keep the Guardian PD on the right side of the Odyssey, which is usually kept clear as I engage enemy ships with the left side. It made short work of a salvo of LRM in a second. However, when they have to face any large ships, like the pair of Heavy Burst Laser on the front of Conquest, they use up all the charges in exchange for mediocre DPS, and leaving the ship vulnerable when the salvo do come. While the charges do regenerate, the advantage of have an amount of charges against missile swarm is lost. Flak cannons do not care, they just keep shooting - there's a reason why most people consider low tech PD to be superior.

Curiously, these weapon also happen to have some of the highest OP cost for their size - even more then most assault and support weapons. This is not really a problem on itself. However, when you have to leave so much room for such dedicated, specialized weapon, it's normal for people to expect more from them.

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As for heavy blaster shooting fighter.... well, sometimes they do hit. If the flux is too much, well yeah, turn off autofire. I usually assign a set of autofire toggle on F1-F5 since now the ergonomic of pressing ctrl-# is even worse than the shift+# days.

Which brings me to another point. The purpose of PD weapon is that we can have less worries about missile, I find it counter-intuitive, even counter-productive, if we have to babysit our PD weapons when the salvo are coming. Once again, the continuous-fire PD is fine, but the performance of burst PD weapon is really suboptimal.

[Gothars]

I'd recommend to map "toggle autofire for group x" to a easily reachable button, like an extra mouse button, and then put all burst PD weapons into that group. You'll want to use the first or second weapon group for that, since the later groups are moved up if not all groups are used. (Which is really annoying for this use case.)

Works also great for missiles and AM blaster.

[Unfolder]

Games are sets of rules players operate within, by definition it's your task as the player to adapt to those rules appropriately.

The rules I play by are to take on fleets 3 to 7 times my size and win. This is exciting, difficult and requires intelligence. It is very easy to "win" this game within the rules you describe. Just buy three frigates and farm low level frigates and fighters, 100 battles worth of frigates and fighters. Then buy three battle cruisers and farm battle cruisers/carrier groups. These battles are auto-win even with the *** AI wasting energy burst PD, it requires no skill or even attention whatsoever. Congrats on you're tremendous ability to grind rules to autowin, might I recommend a game for you - Gratuitous Space Battles.

As someone who actually likes to exert his mind while playing, I challenge myself against 5 to 1 odds. During these battles I find the attention required to maneuver and activate shield and special systems increasingly taken up by babysitting my turrets, a very aggravating task when enemies are attacking from 360, that yes, does indeed require that I pause every 2 seconds as you specifically recommend doing, and Alex specifically states you should not have to do were the game functioning properly.   

But again, this isn't a debate, the developers have already acknowledged that your "hurr durr play gooder" argument is not worthy with the implementation of the PD AI reform hints. I would just like to see them directly integrate these hints into the interface, which I imagine they will (hopefully)

[Alex]

But again, this isn't a debate, the developers have already acknowledged that your "hurr durr play gooder" argument is not worthy with the implementation of the PD AI reform hints. I would just like to see them directly integrate these hints into the interface, which I imagine they will (hopefully)

The hint is there so that modders have more freedom in designing what weapons they want in the game, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from it being there beyond that.

Another point to consider is that while you're asking these rules to be set up per-weapon-group, they're actually decisions that depend on circumstances and there's no "one size fits all" solution. For example, firing Heavy Blasters at Talons can be excellent, or a waste of flux.


Also: please watch your language and tone and treat others with respect. Throwing around terms like "***" all the time is not ok, either.


(@Wyvern: thanks for bringing up that "only fire the first charge at non-PD targets" idea; I'd forgotten about it, will take a look.)

@gunnyfreak: The micro I'm talking about in all those quotes is command-level, and the reason for avoiding it is so that you're able to focus on controlling your ship. Depending on how you define micro, toggling weapon groups arguably isn't "micro" any more than making Mario jump is. If it's something you do often, the solution Gothars pointed out is excellent.

[PCCL]

well... my point is that if we're not supposed to have to fiddle with our fleet to feel like we're playing optimally, why are we supposed to fiddle with our ships' turrets? (i do see the slippery slope to this, ofc, why do we do anything at all? Why can't we just let the game play itself?)

Guess what I'm saying is, controlling when to fire PD and when not to isn't fun (IMO, ofc, but that's why I modded my PD weapons to be PD only and use vs fighters), a simple AI (not sure how simple it is) can make that a lot better...

Come to think of it, guess the only thing I do have problem with is the burst PD's... The rest of them do their jobs pretty well.... (goes to personal mod, removes PD only and use vs fighter from everything save for charge based PD) Guess that's the way I'm gonna be playing until the fire first charge thing happens (or not happens, either way)

Another thing would be their target priority among missiles, they don't seem to see a annihilator rocket as less threatening than an atropos or a harpoon.