Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10

Author Topic: Beam Weapons  (Read 42182 times)

Foxtrot

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • \m/
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2013, 12:58:53 PM »

The thing about "strengths" like accuracy, range, damage, fire rate, AOE, etc. is you can't sacrifice too much of one thing or else the weapon becomes useless. For example, a machine gun, massive fire rate and damage, wonderful things, but if you sacrificed accuracy and/or range you now have a gun that can kill a ton of stuff...if it's 3 feet in front of the gun, everything outside that range you just miss or you hit once or twice but that's not enough. Or you could have a machine gun that does have range, accuracy, damage, and fire rate, but it has 3 bullets in the mag. Again it's wonderful, except now you can't kill anything in any amount of time because you have to reload every three bullets which means your fire rate is gone, useless again. Now that's just machine guns, other weapons are different, like a sniper rifle, you can sacrifice ROF on that, even mag size, but the second you get rid of anything else (except AOE, you know Borderlands and stuff) you have a useless sniper rifle. Now Beams do have the Accuracy, range, ROF, and unlimited mag, but they don't have the damage to back it up, they basically tickle ships from far away and really accurately, compared to good ballistics which punch ships from far away.

TL:DR Beams are almost useless because they gave up damage and didn't compensate enough, either give back damage or compensate for it more
Logged
"Do your duty as you see it, and damn the consequences!"
-General George S. Patton

nohintofsarcasm

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #106 on: July 09, 2013, 01:17:13 PM »

I'd like to see video of that rig taking on the Hegemony Defense Fleet; my initial reaction is that's fricking impossible, at least on full damage.

After all, a single Paragon barely makes it through Forlorn Hope, and that with careful, careful set up.

Then again, I haven't played through Vanilla to any serious extent since hero buffs were put in; maybe that tipped the scales enough, if you're like, level 100 or something and have maxed all the skills.  That's not much of a test, though; you're hardly doing apples-to-apples testing if your fleet has twice as much OP, dissipation, etc. as your opponents.

I have no experience making videos but its pretty straightforward. First of all you are right about me using skills even though they are far from maxed here. Also I'm not sure it makes any difference but that was actually from Starfarer - I haven't acquired any Paragons since then. (Yes I keep a copy of Starfarer for nostalgia reasons.)
Ok, anyway, I strife alot and use the full range of the HILs, I keep to the borders to avoid being surrounded and everything dies very quickly to quadruple HILs. Shields don't help them much because they don't have great shields. Obviously I play on full damage.
To me Forlorn Hope is entirely about luck. Either I face the Onslaught early and I die because I cant kite it while fighting the other things or I face it much later and it loses because it has no backup.

TL:DR Beams are almost useless because they gave up damage and didn't compensate enough, either give back damage or compensate for it more

That is only true on paper. If you compare the damage between tac lasers and ir pulse lasers then tac lasers aren't far behind and will hit more often because it has practically no delay between firing and hitting. HILs outperform autopulse lasers sustained damage by a significant margin.
Logged

phyrex

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 751
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #107 on: July 09, 2013, 01:42:42 PM »

the whole problem is only, and only the soft-flux versus hardflux issue.
its the only major difference between beams and other weapons
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #108 on: July 09, 2013, 04:52:02 PM »

OK, so that we can have a fair argument, I did a test with that build (insofar as I could, since hull mods / level of character / hero buffs) weren't on the table.  

Took on Forlorn Hope with the usual Paragon hull mods (Stabilized Shields, Extended Shields, Hardened Shields) on full damage.

It doesn't remotely cut it without Dedicated Targeting Core.  That 40% range bonus is huge, when it comes to beams.  But it didn't completely suck.

However, if you're going that route, this works even better imo, it's basically a giant kiting device at that point:

Spoiler
[close]

This was able to win Forlorn Hope, with minor hull damage (91% score, only one run).  Could probably get 100% with some more runs.

But that kind of illustrates what I said at the beginning; that's a ship with beams that can kite (or in the case of the Paragon, use its full DPS most of the time).  Anyhow, I guess that counts as Beams "working" but I suspect I could have gotten just a much mileage or more out of many other setups.

Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7231
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2013, 07:52:30 AM »

Quick question: why extended shields? Doesn't the Paragon already have 360 shielding? Try putting advanced optics (the 200 also gets multiplied by the ITU) and turret gyros to compensate - the range gets really insane.

I find the beam Paragon to work well, but they don't synergise with Fortress Shield. Its a nice build, but hardly optimal.

[Edit] Yeah just played through Forlorn Hope with an all beam setup. It pretty much sums up everything people have said about beams:
Against smaller ships (all the fighters, frigates, and destroyers) the beams dominate at incredible range. The accuracy lets them hit all the time at extreme ranges, maxing out the flux of all of these ships before they are in firing range. Against larger ships things start to take a lot longer - to be expected when shields/armor is the defense rather than dodging.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 08:13:45 AM by Thaago »
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2013, 08:48:02 AM »

I put Extended Shields on because in my mod, I gave it only 300 arc to force people to use the upgrade points.  I forgot that in Vanilla it had 360.

Oops, that and removing those useless Heavy Blasters would give me Advanced Optics and Gyros. ::)
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7231
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2013, 10:24:20 AM »

Well for Forlorn Hope and a beam build those heavy blasters are pretty much useless :P. The 4x HIL is ok against the cruiser and the Onslaught, but in my experience 2x HIL and 2x Heavy Blaster isn't. They also drive up flux at an outrageous pace - and with the Paragon being constantly surrounded that hurts a lot.
Logged

Nanostrike

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2013, 08:36:35 PM »

I'll admit flat-out that I usually fly Frigates and Destroyers and my beam experience is limited to what I can do with beams on one of them.

So I'm not sure what you can do with massive capital ships packing multiple High Intensity Lasers.



But on Frigates and Destroyers, an all-beam setup usually ends up with fairly anemic damage potential.
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2013, 09:15:42 PM »

Yeah, that's one of the points we've made.  Beams work, but only when their Soft Flux > Dissipation Rate.  A lone Frigate with Beams vs. a Cruiser with Hard Shields and maxed Flux dissipation, for example, does zero real damage; they're merely lowering the amount of time that the Cruiser can use its full DPS.  

In the case of a souped-up Paragon, which is a bit of a ridiculous example, since ideal Paragon builds are usually constructed around using Fortress Shield (especially with hero buffs) you can, in fact, make Beams work.  

But they only work because the Paragon can mount Beam broadsides that have Soft Flux damage higher than their opponents' Dissipation rates (at least, against Pirates / Hegemony, and note that Forlorn Hope features a lot of Frigates and Fighters that have no shield protection at all).  The Odyssey can (very barely) make this work, too, sometimes, against smaller opponents.  

An Odyssey is meat against an Onslaught that's equipped with Hard Shields, Stabilized Shields and reasonable Flux dissipation, though; it's Ballistic weapons do Hard Flux damage, the Odyssey does not, and the Odyssey cannot kite vs. Burn Drive.  It only really works out with the Paragon, barely, and only because the Paragon is, well, the Paragon- the best tank in the entire game.  

Saying that this means Beams "work" is not a very good argument- there are dozens of Paragon configurations that work, and several that (imo) work better, because they have better Flux / DPS tradeoffs, do Hard Flux damage in alpha strikes and are harder to kill.  

So we're left with the arguments about the relative strengths of Beams:

1.  If you have range buffs for them, their perfect accuracy means you can kite at ranges where Ballistics can't hit you.  That, and none of the stock configs in Vanilla have Targeting Core yet, so you can literally out-range everything in your weight class with beams, Core and Advanced Optics.  

But kiting literally doesn't matter if you cannot raise the enemy's Soft Flux if they decline to use weaponry.  It matters to some extent in fleet engagements, but only if you have multiple ships with multiple weapons taking on a lesser number of enemies.  Even then it's surprisingly marginal, because few of any given ship's Beams can bear on the target.

In most cases, they're a waste of your own Soft Flux; if you're also taking any Hard Flux damage along the way (say, the occasional rocket hitting your shields), it's getting more and more expensive to keep kiting, and the second you stop, the enemy regains any damage done- without venting... whereas you've taken some Hard Flux damage, have a lower threshold for Soft Flux, higher constant Soft Flux costs for firing your Beams, and must Vent to recover.  I don't know how that's balanced, but it looks broken to me.

With smaller ships, this is a worthless build (which is one of the reasons why I got grumpy about this in the first place- it's a sci-fi game where my little ships can't use lasers).

If, on the other hand, they did Hard Flux, the ability to kite via Advanced Optics is a big problem for balance.  I addressed that issue in my mod by making all Ballistics out-range all Beams in their size class, with a few out-classed via Advanced Optics but not all of them.  That (and balance changes elsewhere) restored balance; ballistics have range, but tend to waste ammo at range due to shot speeds and general inaccuracy, Beams have accuracy but have to get closer and take hits.  Ballistics tend to do Kinetic, so their hits are doing more real damage to Shields and therefore impact both enemy potential firepower and time-to-vent / time-to-overload; Beams with Hard Flux get parity, but they eat more Flux (that's a separate argument- I made Ballistics do zero, to make up for limited ammo, shot-speed / accuracy issues and their other flaws when ranges go higher than the really short defaults in Vanilla- if range bands stay how they are now, Ballistics probably don't need any buffs other than making sure they out-range Beams in their size class).

2.  They're really great vs. fast-movers, because the turret AI for Beam weapons is almost perfect and a lot of the small ones have higher turret speeds than anything else.  So you waste very little Flux on misses.  And they don't have ammo issues.

That's great, it's a core strength, but it's a strength that can be addressed via balance; if they're just OP given that they deal Hard Flux, fine, cut their DPS a bit or raise their Flux costs or both.  Then they're good vs. fast-movers, but are more marginal vs. bigger targets.  They're already nerfed that way to some extent because they're ENERGY-type damage, but further nerfs aren't a big deal, if they're actually necessary.  

But there's a wrinkle to that that a lot of players don't appreciate.  Beams do waste little Flux, yes, but their theoretical DPS is rarely their true DPS- just like Ballistics.  Ballistics get more and more efficient as we close on a target, Beams have a flat profile.  So a Beam that looks great at 600 SU is looking a lot less cool at 300 SU (which is one of the reasons why the Vulcan is surprisingly useful, even with its wimpy Frag damage).

I think that one of the tradeoffs there is that Beams probably need to be less Flux-efficient than Blaster-type weapons.  That would make Blasters an intermediate type between Ballistics and Beams- some of the strengths and weaknesses of both.  That's basically how I have things in my mod atm (although generally, I also give them greater range, and made them snipers, instead of being very situational point-blank strike weapons, but that's another argument).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:26:20 PM by xenoargh »
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

Silver Silence

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 980
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2013, 09:42:01 PM »

I find it rather funny that while a beamship of a class can typically handle ships as big as or smaller than it and struggle against things bigger, these beamships are also often high-tech ships. Is it really such a surprise that high-tech beamships do not kill similar high-tech ships? A Paragon beamship wrecks an Onslaught, but will never hurt another Paragon and everyone seems to have an issue with that.

EDIT:
Many, if not all offensive beam weapons are made to help kill things, not directly kill things. So why is it so bad that they do not directly kill a decent ship?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:45:01 PM by Silver Silence »
Logged

Flare

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 906
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2013, 09:52:05 PM »

So why is it so bad that they do not directly kill a decent ship?

Some people just really, really like beams I guess, so much so that they want them to compete in roles they weren't initially envisioned to compete in. I don't know, if beams to become offensive because of threads like this, I'm going to make one about missiles and argue that they too should be primary weapons as well.
Logged
Quote from: Thana
Quote from: Alex

The battle station is not completely operational, shall we say.

"Now witness the firepower of this thoroughly buggy and unoperational batt... Oh, hell, you know what? Just ignore the battle station, okay?"

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2013, 10:14:32 PM »

Why not?  There is a lot to say about those weapons- some of them are wonderful, multi-purpose and just all-around fun, some are marginal, over-specialized and maybe are appropriate on some special builds.

I think that, in this case, we're mainly talking about this (again) because it's a core gripe that many of us share.  I'm mainly just arguing for the fun of it, though; since I wrote that mod that fixed the issue (earlier page) everybody can test ideas to their hearts' content.

Quote
So why is it so bad that they do not directly kill a decent ship?
Because:

A.  If you're in a Frigate or Destroyer, and have Ballistics, you can, with skill, kill a "decent" ship, even above your weight class.  With Beams, you literally cannot, barring an obscene amount of luck or AI stupidity.

B.  As I've pointed out, they're not even all that hot as "support" because of their flat damage profiles, ENERGY-type damage and other factors.

C.  The only thing that makes them un-marginal even at the very high end right now is the very thing Alex said earlier he didn't want to see- Beam kites using Targeting Core / Advanced Optics are pretty much the best way to use them, simply because you can then kite vs. a lot of other things to one degree or another and maximize your real DPS as your targets wallow into a range band that works.  But this kind of special-case argument only comes up with two ships in the game (and one, marginally, imo).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 10:23:51 PM by xenoargh »
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

Silver Silence

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 980
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2013, 10:20:26 PM »

So why is it so bad that they do not directly kill a decent ship?

Some people just really, really like beams I guess, so much so that they want them to compete in roles they weren't initially envisioned to compete in. I don't know, if beams to become offensive because of threads like this, I'm going to make one about missiles and argue that they too should be primary weapons as well.
Can just give any medium or large mounted missile unlimited ammo and have at it.  :P
Wouldn't advise doing it to small missile mounts because things like the 3-rack missiles shoot every second and it becomes laughably stupid as everyone spits the fury of a thousand harpoons at each other. Medium and large mounted missiles often have a cap to their RoF, aside from the Annihilator medium rack. Alternatively, give medium and large missiles a regeneration rate at say 1/2 or 1/3 of their RoF. That way, missiles aren't rendered inert after the first few minutes of battle.
Logged

Nanostrike

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2013, 07:28:55 AM »

Missiles ARE primary weapons in some mods (Hiigarian Descendants have several large ships that use missile barrages as their main attack.  Very cool), and I'd like to see some of those "Spammable main weapon" missiles make an appearance in the vanilla game at some point.



I'd really like to see a specialized type of "Beam" that deals hard flux and is damaging, but is only on for a second or less (Think Burst Lasers that are actually damaging to stuff besides missiles/fighters).  Give them poor turn rates, decent range, and a cooldown of some sort and have them as a viable alternative between the Close-Range Spam that is Pulse Lasers and the mid-range constant damage that are the Beams.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7231
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2013, 07:56:47 AM »

Quote
... I made Ballistics do zero, to make up for limited ammo, shot-speed / accuracy issues and their other flaws when ranges go higher than the really short defaults in Vanilla- ...

Does this actually work out? I can think of a ton of builds that would make all the low tech ships ridiculously overpowered in this case. Also, this is a major nerf against beams - a graviton beam hitting a shield is 100-300 worth of flux (depending on efficiency, power level of firing ship etc) that is unavailable to fire weapons without building the reservoir. Ballistics taking no flux to fire completely eliminates that support aspect. (Not that this matters against high tech, efficient shielded energy ships.) I'm a bit sceptical about this to be honest - its such a fundamental change to the game that it probably effects tons of stuff I can't even think of.

I really don't agree with you saying beams are useless on small ships - I run an all beam Wolf as one of my starter ships and it does extremely well. Imo the best build for taking on swarms of pirates (It does still have the Harpoons).

I then use beams in all 4 slots of a Hammerhead if I go to that ship, and then beams as anti-fighter on a Medusa (a few small slots) and as support on an Eagle (depends on skill levels, I put a pulse in and 2 gravs if I have oodles of OP to spare). Actually... almost every ship with small energy slots gets at least some beams - exceptions are Omen and phase ships. My midlines also carry graviton/phase, my Sunder's get the HIL unless I have oodles of tech. I've tested these builds in numerous real battles (not just simulator) with and without the beams... I keep putting the beams back on.

They are honestly quite good weapons - the exception being against extremely shield efficient ships. They just aren't primary weapons.

Spoiler
Yeah, that's one of the points we've made.  Beams work, but only when their Soft Flux > Dissipation Rate.  A lone Frigate with Beams vs. a Cruiser with Hard Shields and maxed Flux dissipation, for example, does zero real damage; they're merely lowering the amount of time that the Cruiser can use its full DPS

In the case of a souped-up Paragon, which is a bit of a ridiculous example, since ideal Paragon builds are usually constructed around using Fortress Shield (especially with hero buffs) you can, in fact, make Beams work. 

But they only work because the Paragon can mount Beam broadsides that have Soft Flux damage higher than their opponents' Dissipation rates (at least, against Pirates / Hegemony, and note that Forlorn Hope features a lot of Frigates and Fighters that have no shield protection at all).  The Odyssey can (very barely) make this work, too, sometimes, against smaller opponents. 

An Odyssey is meat against an Onslaught that's equipped with Hard Shields, Stabilized Shields and reasonable Flux dissipation, though; it's Ballistic weapons do Hard Flux damage, the Odyssey does not, and the Odyssey cannot kite vs. Burn Drive.  It only really works out with the Paragon, barely, and only because the Paragon is, well, the Paragon- the best tank in the entire game. 

Saying that this means Beams "work" is not a very good argument- there are dozens of Paragon configurations that work, and several that (imo) work better, because they have better Flux / DPS tradeoffs, do Hard Flux damage in alpha strikes and are harder to kill. 

So we're left with the arguments about the relative strengths of Beams:

1.  If you have range buffs for them, their perfect accuracy means you can kite at ranges where Ballistics can't hit you.  That, and none of the stock configs in Vanilla have Targeting Core yet, so you can literally out-range everything in your weight class with beams, Core and Advanced Optics. 

But kiting literally doesn't matter if you cannot raise the enemy's Soft Flux if they decline to use weaponry.  It matters to some extent in fleet engagements, but only if you have multiple ships with multiple weapons taking on a lesser number of enemies.  Even then it's surprisingly marginal, because few of any given ship's Beams can bear on the target.

In most cases, they're a waste of your own Soft Flux; if you're also taking any Hard Flux damage along the way (say, the occasional rocket hitting your shields), it's getting more and more expensive to keep kiting, and the second you stop, the enemy regains any damage done- without venting... whereas you've taken some Hard Flux damage, have a lower threshold for Soft Flux, higher constant Soft Flux costs for firing your Beams, and must Vent to recover.  I don't know how that's balanced, but it looks broken to me.

With smaller ships, this is a worthless build (which is one of the reasons why I got grumpy about this in the first place- it's a sci-fi game where my little ships can't use lasers).

If, on the other hand, they did Hard Flux, the ability to kite via Advanced Optics is a big problem for balance.  I addressed that issue in my mod by making all Ballistics out-range all Beams in their size class, with a few out-classed via Advanced Optics but not all of them.  That (and balance changes elsewhere) restored balance; ballistics have range, but tend to waste ammo at range due to shot speeds and general inaccuracy, Beams have accuracy but have to get closer and take hits.  Ballistics tend to do Kinetic, so their hits are doing more real damage to Shields and therefore impact both enemy potential firepower and time-to-vent / time-to-overload; Beams with Hard Flux get parity, but they eat more Flux (that's a separate argument- I made Ballistics do zero, to make up for limited ammo, shot-speed / accuracy issues and their other flaws when ranges go higher than the really short defaults in Vanilla- if range bands stay how they are now, Ballistics probably don't need any buffs other than making sure they out-range Beams in their size class).

2.  They're really great vs. fast-movers, because the turret AI for Beam weapons is almost perfect and a lot of the small ones have higher turret speeds than anything else.  So you waste very little Flux on misses.  And they don't have ammo issues.

That's great, it's a core strength, but it's a strength that can be addressed via balance; if they're just OP given that they deal Hard Flux, fine, cut their DPS a bit or raise their Flux costs or both.  Then they're good vs. fast-movers, but are more marginal vs. bigger targets.  They're already nerfed that way to some extent because they're ENERGY-type damage, but further nerfs aren't a big deal, if they're actually necessary. 

But there's a wrinkle to that that a lot of players don't appreciate.  Beams do waste little Flux, yes, but their theoretical DPS is rarely their true DPS- just like Ballistics.  Ballistics get more and more efficient as we close on a target, Beams have a flat profile.  So a Beam that looks great at 600 SU is looking a lot less cool at 300 SU (which is one of the reasons why the Vulcan is surprisingly useful, even with its wimpy Frag damage).

I think that one of the tradeoffs there is that Beams probably need to be less Flux-efficient than Blaster-type weapons.  That would make Blasters an intermediate type between Ballistics and Beams- some of the strengths and weaknesses of both.  That's basically how I have things in my mod atm (although generally, I also give them greater range, and made them snipers, instead of being very situational point-blank strike weapons, but that's another argument).
[close]

I disagree with your tactical assessment of case 1. The case given - ship A is firing beams at ship B. Ship B does not fire, so does not overload, so takes no real damage, therefore ship A's actions are worthless. But this cannot be farther from the truth! If ship B has to stop firing, or if it even stops firing half of its weapons, then ship A is being an excellent support ship! If it can do this from out of range of ship B then ship B is completely screwed when Ship C comes to kill it. Ship A is also denying ship B its no flux speed bonus because ship B must always have its shields up. There is also the complete opposite case - let ship B be a Tempest. Ship B is going to be dancing in and out of range, dodging your ballistics, and in general murdering things. Believe it or not beams are very good at countering Tempests when acting with other weapons. The beams don't do all that much when its shields are up, but when it needs to swing its shields to catch a stray shot/missile, or if it needs to vent, the beam is there. There is no gap for the Tempest to exploit - the beams constant damage is wonderful.

In case 2 about the DPS profiles you aren't wrong but I disagree with your interpretation. I see the flat damage profile as a very good thing - it means the beam is always performing as advertised - while I see the spread of ballistics lessening effective DPS at range as a trap that only experience can correct for.

Spoiler
Why not?  There is a lot to say about those weapons- some of them are wonderful, multi-purpose and just all-around fun, some are marginal, over-specialized and maybe are appropriate on some special builds.

I think that, in this case, we're mainly talking about this (again) because it's a core gripe that many of us share.  I'm mainly just arguing for the fun of it, though; since I wrote that mod that fixed the issue (earlier page) everybody can test ideas to their hearts' content.

Quote
So why is it so bad that they do not directly kill a decent ship?
Because:

A.  If you're in a Frigate or Destroyer, and have Ballistics, you can, with skill, kill a "decent" ship, even above your weight class.  With Beams, you literally cannot, barring an obscene amount of luck or AI stupidity.

B.  As I've pointed out, they're not even all that hot as "support" because of their flat damage profiles, ENERGY-type damage and other factors.

C.  The only thing that makes them un-marginal even at the very high end right now is the very thing Alex said earlier he didn't want to see- Beam kites using Targeting Core / Advanced Optics are pretty much the best way to use them, simply because you can then kite vs. a lot of other things to one degree or another and maximize your real DPS as your targets wallow into a range band that works.  But this kind of special-case argument only comes up with two ships in the game (and one, marginally, imo).
[close]

A: So what? There are plenty of weapons that you can do this with.

B: I've talked enough about this in the rest of the post.

C: In addition to kiting they also provide a wide range area denial. For example: Hammerhead with 2 tacs, 2 burst pds, being escorted by a Talon wing. If Broadswords or Piranhas come in then the Talons won't be getting hit by swarmers, even at decent range away from the Hammerhead. Those Talons are all of a sudden much more effective. Or take an Eagle with Graviton beams - ships out to ~1100 range cannot approach without being under fire.




Well this turned into a much longer post than I expected :P In summary: yes beams are not effective against highly efficient shields. They are excellent in a wide range of circumstances. Trying to use them as primary killing weapons is usually doing it wrong, with several exceptions. I still support making them ignore shield efficiency.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10